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Hoagland and Wilcock on Coast to Coast

5-15/16-04

AB: From the high desert in the great American southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon - as the time zone may dictate - all of them covered like a blanket by this program, Coast to Coast AM.

I'm Art Bell. It's the weekend, and I am honored to be with you on a Saturday night going into Sunday morning, and of course tomorrow night as well.

I have some shocking and tragic news for you at the top of the program and I'm sure Richard's gonna have a lot to say about this and will probably fill me in on details I don't yet have. But what it boils down to is that Dr Eugene Mallove is dead.

And it is indeed with great sadness that we report the passing of Gene Mallove who died, no, correction, was killed, on May 14th apparently due to some sort of - we don't know about this - allegedly, some are saying "some kind of property dispute . It is considered by the police to be a homicide and an investigation is under way now.

Gene is survived by his wife Joanne, son Ethan, and daughter Kim. No funeral arrangements are known at this time. Gene Mallove who in 1991, wrote the book "Fire from Ice: " - now, maybe you know him, if you didn't -- "Searching for the Truth behind the Cold Fusion Furor .

[He] was the first to courageously and boldly express the truth behind cold fusion long before any science journalist ever dared to. He maintained the cold fusion [crusade] at great personal sacrifice, which initially drew many to learn the truth behind cold fusion. Gene's generosity and commitment to a better world will be forever appreciated. That was written by Steven B. Krivet.

There were, you know, a hundred emails in my inbox about the apparent bludgeoning death of Dr Mallove and I just don't know what to say about this except the number of scientists, and research biologists, and astronomers who have met their death prematurely, in so many cases, is beginning to add up to a fairly large number.

Briefly in the world, theUS military said Saturday it killed 18 gunmen believed loyal to radical cleric Al Sadhir in Baghdad, and jet fighters bombarded militia positions on the capitol's outskirts.

"Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfield authorized the expansion of a secret program that encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners to obtain intelligence about the growing insurgency inIraq. The New Yorker is reporting this. That would be certainly a bombshell if true.

The Defense Department strongly denied the claims made in that report, which cited unnamed current and former intelligence officials and was published on the magazine's website. Pentagon's spokesperson Laurence Durita [sp?] issued a statement calling the claims, "Outlandish, conspiratorial and filled with error and anonymous conjecture.

Meanwhile, the President's approval ratings have hit the lowest levels of his tenure -- presently 42%. Overall job approval at 42%. That's a Newsweek poll.

So that's the world news. Of course the real shocking news is about Eugene Mallove, and we're about to, I'm sure, hear more from Richard C. Hoagland. We are also going to be joined shortly by David Wilcock, assuming he can find [a proper telephone], perhaps at the bottom of the hour, and he's on a mad dash trying to find a telephone.

But Richard C. Hoagland you all know. A former space science museum curator, a former NASA consultant, and -- during the historic Apollo missions to the moon -- was science advisor to Walter Cronkite, and of course CBS News.

For the last 19 years Hoagland has been leading an outside scientific team in a critically acclaimed independent analysis of possible intelligently designed artifacts on Mars. In the past four years he and his team's investigators have been quietly extended, or the investigation itself, to include over 30 years of previously hidden data from NASA, Soviet, and Pentagon missions to the Moon.

As I mentioned, as soon as we're able, perhaps shortly, we'll have a conversation simultaneously with David Wilcock. All of that coming right up.

(Commercial break)

Good evening. I think we're gonna luck out and get David online right away. I'll tell you about that in a moment.

There is one other thing that I'd like to mention.

As you know "the Movie coming up, the big blockbuster movie, The Day After Tomorrow, is causing a firestorm, I mean a literal firestorm of publicity. Which I guess in a way is probably good for a movie.

From the moment when NASA said that they weren't gonna let their scientists comment on the whole thing, to the next moment, when all of a sudden they decided they would, to stories from Britain - the highest officials in the government in Britain saying that it's realistic --to others saying it's not, to this simple email that I think says, well, says it all -- just about.

"I read your book Art, and loved it. He refers there to "The Coming Global Superstorm, which, of course, in part was the basis for the Day After Tomorrow movie, which is about to break over our heads in more ways than one.

He writes, "Art I read your book and I'm looking forward to seeing the movie. However, both the left and right wings of this country are misrepresenting your book. Unless I misread the book, it is not an indictment of global warming. It was however a description of a natural geological process which may or may not have been pushed along by pollution.

Thank you. "In your book to me you pointed [out] that this geological process happens about every twelve thousand years, and you tie it to the zodiac as a possible device the ancients used to warn the future people of Earth. Or, did I miss the point?

No, my friend, that's from atocha, atocha is it? [Art spells out] a-t-o-c-h-a. You didn't miss the point at all. You have the point dead on my friend. And I've been trying to make it and make it and remake it and the left, of course, is using this as a sort of, "this is going to be your tomorrow and you better get on the Bush administration and knock some sense into them.

The right, of course, dismisses the whole thing as ridiculous and impossible. Bear in mind this is a science fiction movie, it's not a documentary. It's a science fiction movie. [It is] based though, I'm afraid, on what may be a rather accurate forecast of what is going to come -- because it has been here before.

We have archeological evidence that mostly we try to bury and not think about with respect to this, but this e-mailer hit it right on the head. I mean, both sides have this totally wrong. And in the end, it doesn't matter whether it's a natural occurrence, one done by the hand of man, or the hand of man was helping it along, or any of the above; we should all be past that.

And if you look at what happened to Europe this last year and all the dead there, it's only the beginning. Our weather is changing, and it's going to change, and we think rather radically.

So, I think we should be looking at alternative energy sources. We had a little tip of the hat during the Carter administration for that, remember? And nothing since, by any administration, so we ought to be looking at ways that we could prolong our energy independence.

After all, we're over there - many believe - fighting a war for exactly all of that right now. And so it's fitting, in a way I guess, that tonight we will discuss the murder of somebody that's at the forefront of energy research and ultimate independence for theUnited States.

I'm so sorry to have to have been the voice, probably, to bring you that news. Dr Eugene Mallove [has been] murdered and here with what may be more details would be Richard C. Hoagland. Hey buddy.

RH: Hi Art.

AB: Welcome to the program.

RH: You know, we've done a lot of shows over the years and this is gonna be one of the more difficult ones, because Gene and I go way back, and I had talked to him just a couple days ago. Some of the things that we're gonna talk about tonight, you know, that we've never talked about before, were part of that conversation.

Robin and I were planning to go to New Hampshire next week to meet with him and the people at his lab, the New Energy Foundation, and discuss some very important political and technical developments relating to new energy, hyper-dimensional physics, cold fusion, anti-gravity [!] -- if you want to even use that term.

There are some extraordinary breakthroughs waiting in the wings - and when we got a call early afternoon today, from a very close friend so that I knew that it was not a hoax, and he relayed that he had had a call from someone that he believed about this shocking, absolutely incomprehensible thing, I spent the rest of the day trying to track down if this was real.

And unfortunately, as of about an hour ago, we talked with the police in Connecticut where the murder occurred, and although they're being very circumspect and there are rules about not acknowledging victims until the family has been able to come and view the body and make a positive ID.

The local media in Connecticut, particularly my old station, Channel 3, which is WFSB now, used to be WTIC, have confirmed that Gene was found about 11pm in southern Connecticut at his mother's home, we believe. He was robbed, apparently.

AB: At his mother's home. In Connecticut.

RH: In southern Connecticut. He lived in New Hampshire.

AB: Right. In Concord.

RH: Right. But in Norwich Connecticut, which is just a couple towns up from where I used to live in Norwalk, so I know the neighborhood very well, there has been some discussion on the net about a property dispute with a tenant and all that. I have no idea where that story came from. We have no confirmation of any of that. Apparently he was found, his body was found in the yard of his family home.

AB: Bludgeoned?

RH: Bludgeoned to death. He was beaten to death.

AB: My God. How old was he, Richard, do you know?

RH: He was about my age and your age. We're all the same age. You know, the folks who are trying to make the world better are just about the same age.

And it's so shocking to have talked to somebody who was so vibrant and had so many exciting things going on. Tonight I'm hoping that this show can become a kind of living memorial to Gene's work. You know, they talk about people who will change the world? Well, Gene was changing the world.

And I have this awful sinking feeling that that's the reason he's no longer with us tonight; that this rearguard action [is] to prevent the future from coming, to prevent a new day from dawning. A few Neanderthals are running around out there doing despicable things, in a desperate last minute attempt to keep the inevitable from happening.

And the reason I say that is because the coincidence of what we talked about and me talking to him at all, because we hadn't talked on the phone for two years.

AB: What is it that brought you back together, Richard?

RH: Well, as I said on George's show the other night, when we were in Washington at the X-Conference, we had some extremely interesting meetings on Capitol Hill with Senators -- not Senators - Congressmen, and staff.

And in particular, we've got some people on the inside who are so enamored with what our message is and what we have to offer in the way of data and research and contacts, through other data, that they have basically offered me a briefing on Capitol Hill, more than one, at my discretion.

The room actually, one room has already been reserved, and I was calling Gene to specifically invite him to discuss it with me when we got together next week, to be a part of this extraordinary opportunity.

Gene was at the center of the spider web of all of the credible scientists and technologists and engineers who have labored for so many years in the vineyards to bring forth this so-called  "free energy and new energy physics and technology which this planet so desperately, desperately needs.

AB: It certainly does. Richard, so, he was a leader in Cold Fusion. Now, Cold Fusion inAmerica was a very controversial thing. As you know some institutions of higher learning were able to duplicate the experiments while others were not. It was kind of quietly dropped.

Pons and Fleischman moved to Europe, got fed up with the way it was being treated in this country. Where did Dr Eugene Mallove fit in, in the scheme of things?

RH: Well, Gene started out like we all started out, very squeaky clean mainstream. You know my background was Cronkite/NASA, his background was MIT; he had two or three PhD's, I kind of lost track. He was a nuclear physicist, he was an environmental scientist.

He knew the bad - [the] "down side -- of nuclear physics and nuclear fission, and the myth of hot fusion, which we've always been promised would happen, and it hasn't happened for thirty, forty years. It's almost like the quote from Alice in Wonderland, "Jam tomorrow, jam yesterday, but never jam today.

AB: He was still an advocate of it.

RH: Not hot fusion -- not at all!

AB: No.

RH: What turned him into an activist in the new energy frontier was when he was [the] science writer, [the] head science writer at MIT, which is a very prestigious position. He found scientists on the payroll of the department of energy at MIT faking data against cold fusion experiments!

AB: I've heard this.

RH: It's not rumor -- it's fact.

AB: Actually, altering.

RH: Altering the data.

AB: In other words to show...

RH:,Making it appear that their experiment, which received a positive result, actually perceived a negative result. And he was so incensed when his department would do nothing about this, this egregious violation of every science ethic if not moral ethic one can imagine...

AB: He resigned over that?

RH: He resigned over that, specifically. And then he went into a period where, you know when you kind of blow the whistle on the in-crowd, you get blacklisted?

AB: Yes.

RH: And you can't get a job. And he tried to launch an independent laboratory and journal devoted to cold fusion. He had done his homework. He had written the book "Fire from Ice . If you read the book, you'll see there was a multitude of data even back in 1989 showing that this was a real, if completely mysterious, phenomenon.

But he spent a tremendous number of years, Art, basically paying the price of being a man of integrity. And that's one of the wonderful things that I loved about him.

Because he was unstoppable, he was determined to get at the truth, whatever the truth was, make it public, and bring this paradigm, this new age, where this planet no longer has to suffer from the want and privation of the oil economy and the control of limited resources, which we're seeing the bitter, bitter fruits of now in the Middle East and on our TV screens every single night.

AB: Yes, yes.

RH: He was looking to a different day, a different path, a different dawning of the real human age. And on the eve of potentially some breakthroughs in that direction, he has been brutally murdered.

AB: It was made to look like, or appears to be, robbery [as an] initial motive, or at least [that] he was robbed. That doesn't mean that's why he was killed.

RH: We don't know really anything. We've got the names of the detectives, you know, from the police department. We're gonna talk with them tomorrow. We're putting other people in touch with them that may have information.

I just find the coincidence, given the breakthrough that he described to me on the phone, which I can talk about, and given what I was going to be able to bring him to in the way of conversations at the center of power, you know, in Washington with the peoples' representatives. You know the White House may be out of bounds...

AB: Richard, how much do you know about this, in quotes, "breakthrough that he had told you about? Would it be so big that it might be a motive for murder?

RH: Well there are several levels. There are the technical breakthroughs which I can talk about. This was a political breakthrough. Because remember Art, the problem has always been, once you solve the science, how do you get it before the American people.

AB: Of course. So you're saying he had achieved a breakthrough in that arena?

RH: He felt he had achieved a breakthrough. It was supposed to be moving forward in the next few weeks. It was one of the things we were going to discuss. I was actually quite skeptical because I know how Washington can grind important things into dust just by dragging them out interminably.

And then you just quit. People just, they have to go on with their lives. He felt this was a political breakthrough. Well, let me tell you in a nutshell what he said it was.

Many years ago, back in 1989, there was a very stinging, negative Department of Energy report which basically put the nails in the coffin of cold fusion. When the New York Times writes about cold fusion, or Popular Science, or The Washington Post, or Science Magazine, they're basically quoting from the conclusions of this panel of eminent scientists/physicists.

AB: In a nutshell Richard, time's almost up here in the half hour--

RH: Yep. But basically [the DOE Report] said there was nothing there.

RH: What Gene told me two day ago, is [that] the Department of Defense, the DOD -- because of a sudden new perceived, get this, "terrorist angle on cold fusion and new energy,

AB: Terrorist angle, yes.

RH: We'll get to the details after the break. But he said that they [the DOD] were going to completely overturn the DOE 1989 negative Report!

AB: Alright. Richard C. Hoagland, hold tight. When we come back we'll be joined, incidentally, by David Wilcock. I'm Art Bell from the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.

(commercial break)

AB: If you're just joining us, Richard C. Hoagland is here, [and] we're about to be joined by David Wilcock. We're discussing the bludgeoning murder of Dr Eugene Mallove, just announced tonight. Now, Dr Mallove has been a guest on this program many number of times.

He was a leader, a proponent of cold fusion, and we're discussing his life, what he did, what he may have been onto with Richard C. Hoagland. Shortly [we'll hear from] David Wilcock [as well.] Stay right where you are.

(commercial continues)

AB: By the way, what I read at the beginning about Dr Mallove's death was written by Steven B Krivet, I believe that, I hope that's correct, Steven at the New Energy Times. So it's a somber moment. There's no question about it - a really solemn moment. And Annabel in Los Angeles writes, "Do you ever worry about your own safety? If all our brilliant scientists keep dying under mysterious circumstances, and you're one who brings us some of that information, I hope you're safe.

Well, I don't know. I've wondered about that over the years, Richard, and I'm sure there have been a few times when you have too. When you deal in this kind of information, somebody's going to be unhappy with you, inevitably. And I suppose it's a risk of life but I never gave it a whole lot of thought. I just... how ‘bout you?

RH: As you know, I've had some interesting experiences. Back in ‘99, the heart attack [occurred] under very mysterious circumstances.

AB: Yes.

RH: George had Robin on the other night, and he wanted to go into that, so we did a bit. But no, this is certainly not something that you wake up every morning frozen in indecision [about], and Gene, if he had known this was part of the landscape, I don't think he would have changed one thing he was doing. It's too important. Too many peoples' lives hang in the balance for the better.

Let me make one small correction. I'm now going back to that conversation trying to remember every nuance, as you do when it's your last conversation.

AB: Of course.

RH: And he -- the reason the DOD is now involved [in reassessing the 1989 DOE Report] -- is because there is a quote, "terrorist connection to cold fusion , which is bizarre, it's because it's linked through the DOE -- and their nuclear weapons mandate.

AB: The Department of Energy.

RH: What you may not know is, the Department of Energy--

AB: Richard, can you give me any, and the audience, any idea of what possible application cold fusion could have in terrorism?

RH: Oh yeah. It's elementary... Simple. In fact, it was so obvious that I remember during the conversation several times saying, in a very acerbic tone, "Well, of course they'll get interested now -- because they've got the fear factor.

AB: Well, help me to understand the fear factor. I don't quite get... we need to bring David on here so hit me with this first though, if you would please, and the audience, how...

RH: All right, I have to do a thirty second backgrounder...

AB: [Disappointed-sounding] Okay.

RH: You know Art, we gotta do it that way.

AB: Alright.

RH: One of the things that was serendipitously discovered in the Pons and Fleischman post-era, which Gene was heavily involved [in,] in terms of monitoring the efforts to replicate Pons and Fleischman and the cold fusion and the bottle on the desk, that kind of thing, was the mysterious appearance of isotopes, nuclear materials in the experiments, that were not there in the beginning.

And they discovered that what was happening, this went all the way from the University of Texas, to Los Alamos, toFrance, to Japan, that they were getting nuclear transmutation.

AB: Got it.

RH: The typical, you know, alchemy dream,

AB: The bubbles. The bubbles gave off what appeared to be a reaction.

RH: Well, it was a variety of experiments, but they all have this common thread that, in addition to the energy -- the heat that appeared -- you got these bizarre transmutations of elements, that shouldn't have occurred under any circumstances.

AB: However, it's my understanding that it was rather subtle, at that.

RH: Well, in the beginning it was subtle. But here's where the breakthrough came. [It was] apparently published in the open literature, meaning any scientist in the world can read it, or anybody working for Bin Laden.

In the major physical journal, the Japanese physics journal, a group of scientists at Mitsubishi -- which is one of the heavy-hitter corporations inJapan -- conducted some extraordinarily simple experiments. And I won't bore people with what they are. Gene described them to me and they're incredibly simple.

AB: You can bore me with that if you want.

RH: Okay, all right, all right, tell me where you wanna go.

AB: I wanna understand the process that...

RH: All right, you basically have a container. A closed container. Like a vacuum tube, all right -- it can be big or small. You have a membrane down the middle, which separates one side with a deuterium gas - which is heavy hydrogen - from the other side, which is basically a good vacuum. And on the membrane, which can be Palladium, which is one of the cold fusion active elements ....

AB: Or nickel,.

RH: Well, what he described was Palladium. That's right [nickel was also used]. You plate some other material [on the Palladium membrane]. Some other metal. And, depending upon what metal you chose, when you basically observe what was coming through the membrane, into the vacuum side, it had changed elemental composition -- and was a heavier isotope!

And, he lead me through the parent/daughter product series and he said, "Guess what you need to put on the membrane to get U-235 in the empty chamber?

AB: What?

RH: Well, he didn't [say]. But, I mean you can just do the nucleon calculation yourself. It's a common metal, it's vacuum deposition. Any high school lab, any high school physics lab, can make this up.

AB: Is the suggestion through all of this, Richard, that this element could then be used in some catastrophic bomb?

RH: If you had a Bid Laden type who wanted to make U-235, who wanted to make a lot of U-235 to make a fission bomb...

AB: Yes.

RH:, like the old Oak Ridge.

AB: You're saying you could manufacture...

RH: In a garage, in a basement, in a chemlab. Anywhere on Earth, with trivial expenditure of resources, money, equipment. That's way the DOD and the DOE are suddenly interested in cold fusion... because it can kill people.

AB: All right. I've got it. Anything that could kill people, certainly.

All right, time to bring David, he's been patient, in on the conversation. We'll continue. David Wilcock is a professional intuitive consultant who, since reading Richard C. Hoagland's Monuments of Mars, in 1993, has intensively jumped into the middle of UFOlogy, ancient civilizations, consciousness, science, and new paradigms of matter and energy.

He's the author of a trilogy of scientific research works known as the Convergence series, which gives definitive support to the idea that a change of matter, energy, and consciousness is actually now occurring on the Earth and throughout the solar system. So I wanted to bring him into the conversation and if luck is with us here he is. David?

DW: Hello Art, how are you doing?

AB: Hi. I take it you've been following closely the conversation to this point. I apologize for keeping you on this long without bringing you on but, this was breaking news that really did have to be covered. I hope you understand.

DW: Absolutely, it's not a problem.

AB: All right, you're gonna have to get good and close to that...

RH: Yeah, I can barely hear David.

DW: Okay.

AB: Yeah, good and close to that phone and yell at us. If your lips are touching, then you're in the right place, David.

DW: Okay, how do I sound now?

AB/RH: Much better.

AB: Much better. All right. David, I'd like to give you the opportunity to comment on what you've heard so far and/or add or subtract anything you would like to.

DW: Well, in the course of my work I've been affiliated with people who are involved in the free energy field, quite directly in some cases. I was invited to speak at the 2002 US Psychotronics Association Conference. I'm actually going to be speaking at the one that's going on this year, as well. The website for that is www.psychotronics.org.

And I have seen evidence of people having threats or being assassinated. One example would be [from when] I spoke with Dale Pond. He had made a breakthrough [in free energy], and then came home and found a burnt match in the middle of the carpet of his living room.

Another example, which is even more bizarre, occurred with somebody who I actually spoke on the same stage with, and I guess I won't say his name right now. This particular guy had made a breakthrough in free energy [achieving an over-unity effect], and the first time it happened -- the very next morning when he came back to his lab -- everything related to the experiment was missing ... including all the paperwork, all the prototypes, et cetera.

Then, later on, he made another breakthrough. This time it was in his own private apartment. And he goes out for his son's baseball game, which takes about four hours of time, and he comes back to his apartment, and there's no carpets, there's no shower curtain, there's no shower curtain rod, there's no furniture, there's nothing in the cabinets.

The entire apartment was literally gutted head-to-toe. That's sounds pretty outrageous, I don't know how somebody could move that quickly in four hours, but I suppose it's possible. And I believe he was telling me the truth.

AB: As most of my audience knows, David, there have been a bevy, I guess you'd say, of research biologists, people working on all kinds of little bugs, other scientists working on, you know, leading edge, cutting edge science in a number of fields that have met very mysterious deaths in the last few years. I mean, this is just one more.

DW: Yeah, the literature on this is pretty solid. I guess as far as the personal angle, which is a question had Richard also answered recently, I am reminded of a quote from Abraham Lincoln where he says, "I would rather die once at the hands of an assassin than die every day in fear of assassination.

AB: That's right. And that's really the answer to the danger question. You just can't live your life that way. Yes, some lines of work are more dangerous than others, for obvious reasons.

RH: What is so ironic is that, in [my] conversation [with Gene,] we were talking about [how] the dam appears to be about to break. It's been fifteen years -- coming up on fifteen years -- since Pons and Fleischman, and the negative DOE Report, which basically killed all official scientific interest, you know, by the [scientific] journals, by Nature, by Science, by the DOE itself, as a source of [research] funding.

Most scientists basically have to chase after grants to stay alive and keep publishing. But Gene held the torch very high, and he was able to marshal some very prestigious people on the Board of the [Infinite Energy] Magazine, and the Board of the [New Energy] Foundation.

And I am confident tonight that this [research] will go on -- that this [murder] is [just] a desperate, stupid, insane act of "something [to try to stop this research]  - but, I can't believe it's just "coincidence.

AB: Do either one of the two of you care to comment on the dire, dire situation the world is in and how really important an alternative energy source is right now? How really important and how critical it is?

DW: I would say it's of ultimate importance. If we don't change the way things are going, we're not going to have a planet. What could be more important than that?

AB: One of the government officials inBritain said, "It's a bigger problem for the world than terrorism.

DW: Oh, by far.

AB: So that's how big a deal that we're talking about here. Everything, literally, your life style, your life, the life of those people in the world, all of it rests on the ability of this world to figure out a way to stop doing some of what we're doing right now, and find a new way to do it, or else.

DW: Hypothetically, let's say that part of the reason -- or maybe the main reason -- for the extinguishing of these free energy scientists (of which I'm aware of more examples than I've given),  has to do with money. Well, the bottom line is, how can you make money when there's nobody there?

How can you make money when the world itself has been irreversibly damaged by the continuing abuse of these of fossil fuels? If there is any truth to the idea of Peak Oil, then we don't really have much more. And that's why gas is two dollars a gallon.

AB: Actually, it hit three bucks a gallon in Santa Barbara... $3.09.

DW: Totally unreasonable.

AB: Or something horrible like that in Santa Barbara. I knew we'd hit three dollar gas.

RH: And for full service it went over $4.07 last night.

AB: Yeah, I heard that. I forget where that was. Was it California somewhere?

RH: It was Los Angeles.

AB: LA. Over four dollars. Well, it's gonna get worse, and it's gonna get worse, and it's gonna get a lot worse. And people, I don't think all of them grasp the real place this is gonna go. I mean, this country runs on oil. All the things you buy, just about all of them are transported by vehicles that burn fossil fuels to get them from here to there.

DW: That's correct.

AB: Our whole economy is based on this. I understand what's at stake. Or, at least I think I understand part of it. This is the most serious issue in the world and we have people -- of course, we have no reason to say that Dr Mallove was murdered because of his research -- but you also can't dismiss that as one very strong possibility.

RH: Art, I just look at this coincidence, and I can not believe it's "coincidence. Because, when we were going to get together, we were going to share some critical information on both sides and then I was going to take him to Washington to meet with people that we met with, and many many others, in a setting where his three PhD's and all the people that he talks to, and the technology he could bring with him...

Remember how, Art, you've always wanted a gadget to stick on your desk?

AB: Well, that's what I've always said, just give me a, even a toy - something!

RH: Well, Gene has that. He had that. And I wanted that for my Washington presentations. And I'm still going to get that, because it wasn't just that he had it, he had access to it through other people who have done the actual research. So this is incredibly stupid, and all this has done is to alert everyone what the stakes really are tonight.

I mean, just watch your TV screen and imagine a world where all we have to look forward to is more terrorism, higher prices, more American kids dying in places where we don't want them dying.

AB: Deterioration of the environment.

RH: The environment going to hell in a handbasket. The oceans, the atmosphere, larger cases of greenhouse warming as we pour the last gasp of fossil fuel into the air in an effort to keep us at some "standard of living.

That is the resource downward spiral I discussed the other night with George. And [it is] the reason that I wanted this audience to reach out and get me to a position to testify in front of the President's Space Commission.

Well, one of the things that is happening, as part of our East Coast trip in the next few weeks, [is that] I have set up a personal meeting and discussion with a key individual on the President's Space Commission. And what struck me in our conversation, (this was before I actually talked to Gene, and the reason I called Gene is because I thought, okay, let's do this as a one-two punch -- let's bring these conversations into the same arena).

When I talked with the Commissioner, what struck me was how he was more apocalyptic than I had been on the air the other night, when I talked about "the resource box, and how the President's space vision is our "last, best hope - provided,  we reach out and do it the smart way, the intelligent way, which involves some of the technologies and physics that Mallove had access to.

And, when this Commissioner was talking to me, he said, "Dick, I think this is our last chance. If we don't do it this time, we will never do it -- because the resources won't be there, the ‘political will' will not be there, we will be swallowed by this monster of ‘everybody stuck in the same room, firing in the dark at each other over a few scraps of food',.

I mean, [he brought up] my basic metaphor that I used on the air the other night. And that's what was going to bring us together [Gene and myself] in that meeting. It was based on that [space commission] meeting, that I called up Gene, and I said, "Let us think of a way to bring what you know is possible now to Washington, to show people who are honest, but ignorant, that there is a way out of this trap. There's a way out of this box, while we have time.

And tonight, he's not with us anymore.

AB: And you were going to go? Are you going to actually have a demonstration available for me? You're going to have a real over-unity device?

RH: Now that I don't have Gene to act as a go-between, it will be more difficult to get to the principles. But I'm gonna make one hell of a try, and I'm gonna try to do that. I don't know the timeframe yet.

AB: But you're saying you have this device?

RH: I know I--

AB: Or, you can lay your hands on it?

RH: I know that Gene personally saw it, witnessed it, wrote about it, gave testimonials.

AB: All right, well you see... Hold on Richard, hold on David, we're approaching the top of the hour. If all of that is true, then that would potentially be a motive for murder.

If you really had that, that would certainly be a motive for murder, and that's not to say that's why he was just murdered, bludgeoned to death. But if you really had what we just talked about, that would be a motive, no question about it.

From the high desert in the middle of the night. On the weekend, this is Coast to Coast AM, rockin' along.

(Commercial break)

AB: Indeed, so Richard Hoagland, David Wilcock are both here. We, to this moment, have been discussing the world's oil situation. Actually, we've been talking about the alternative to that. What you're really talking about [is] the oil situation, the desperate situation [that] has people after us, and us after them, as in a war. And it's gonna get a lot worse before it gets better.

As you see that price at the pump go up, and up, and up, and up, you're soon going to see our economy going down, and down, and down, and down. That's what's at stake. Nothing less than ultimately our survival. And a leader in the alternative field of energy, Dr Eugene Mallove, has been bludgeoned to death, and that's news this night, so we've been discussing it.

Listen, a programming note. I am not going to be here next weekend. Ramona and myself are going to New York where we have been invited to see the premiere of the movie The Day After Tomorrow.

In case you've never seen what an invitation to a 125-million dollar movie looks like, I thought I'd share it with you, so I scanned it, omitting, blacking out a little bit of the RSVP number, telephone number, which I don't think you could have read anyway, but I thought you'd be interested to see what an invitation of that sort would look like.

That's what's up on the webcam tonight. So we'll be attending that next weekend on the 24th, actually in New York, instead of being here. So this time next week, I'll be well on my way to New York City for that event.

[It's] a once in a lifetime kind of deal, really, so I wanted you to know that next week, I believe that we'll have one replay and Barbara Simpson will be here for the other evening. All right, in a moment, back to our guests: Richard C. Hoagland and David Wilcock. Stay right there.

(commercial continues)

AB: Once again my guests, Richard C. Hoagland and David Wilcock. Gentlemen, welcome back to the program. Alright, look, I do want to get off a little bit on what we had, what we were going to discuss. Strangely, in a lot of ways it doesn't, it's not that far off the mark anyway...

RH: Well no, it's absolutely, incredibly on-point, because--

AB: It really is. Yeah, here's what I want, Richard. Look, we've got a neighborhood. We're Earth. We can look at Mars and we're looking very hard at Mars now. You know what, Richard, there's something else I wanted to settle just before we even get into all of this and that is, for a few weeks or months now, the audience has featured or believes that we have a feud going on...

RH: (Laughs)

AB: And it's not true. At least I don't think it's true, not on my part.

RH: Not mine either.

AB: What I did do, I went on the air and said with regard to some photographs that had gone up that, "You know, I'm sorry, I see rocks. Then, I hadn't heard from you in a while and, you know, two dimensional me, I'm not changing that, some of the things that you pointed out as possibly, I don't know, in the various different...

RH: Artifacts, junk.

AB: Artifacts that you see. I don't see the same junk. I see rocks. And I still just see rocks. But we have had no feud that I'm aware of going on. I'm sure word of my saying that reached you...

RH: Yes, it did.

AB: But then again that's not really anything new between us.

RH: But Art, Art, just because you, remember what you told me the night the first image of the Face on Mars, whole Face, came in 2001?

AB: Yes. I'm not talking about the Face now.

RH: I know, but remember what you told me? You said "hang it up, get another job, go do storm windows, it's over,.

AB: Well, you mean the cat box picture?

RH: No, no, this was the one in 2001, the full Face image.

AB: (thinking) mmmmm...

RH: I can play the tape.

AB: Well, okay. That may well be too.

RH: In a reasoned reconsideration, going back and looking and thinking, you came around, to the other night, I heard you say, "the damn thing is cat-like on the one side and monkey-like on the other.

AB: It is. Yeah, that's right, that's right.

RH: Well, it "only took you three years, Art.

So I'm a very patient person. I figure if you can't see what I see as soon as I see it, just give you time.

AB: (Laughs) Anyway, anyway, just so they know, there was no feud.

RH: There are people out there that I'm sure would love to create a "feud.

AB: Yeah, they always do that.

RH: And when David and I cooked up this little thing we're gonna do tonight, the first person I picked up the phone and called was you -- because you and I started this [discussion about alternative energy and Physics] on the air many, many years ago, discussing the backdrop to the new physics that Gene Mallove gave his life for.

It is a complete revolution in the paradigm, which is not being discussed in any mainstream halls, in any mainstream venues,.

In fact, what I'd like to do to -- kind of -- intro this section of the program tonight, is to read a short section. And I know you hate reading, but--

AB: Yeah, I do. You know I just want to set this up. And I started to,

RH: Well, let me tell you what I wanted to read and then you can decide.

AB: Yes.

RH: This is Gene's last editorial, which is so incredibly prescient. It's almost like he knew he wasn't going to be with us.

AB: Read it.

RH: I'm sitting here, holding it in my lap, reading it again.

AB: Go ahead and read it.

RH: For the second time...

AB: Right, just do it.

RH: Okay. He calls it, "Breakthrough: Science Censorship, the Invisible Evil .

"The Spirits and Opportunity rovers on Mars have left their landing cocoons, and are exploring the surface of an alien world that has been long captivating the human imagination. The robotic laboratories are sending back spectacular imagery and other data which, thanks to the Internet, gives scientists and laypeople around the world an unprecedented chance to explore, vicariously, another planet.

There is no doubt that this is a huge accomplishment. It demonstrates progress in technological sophistication, in astronautics, communications, computer technology, and robotics, applied towards valuable ends to learn about another world by touching it from afar.

The success of the latest Martian initiative might suggest to some that all is well in the halls of science. Everything is working as planned. New vistas are opening up. We may soon be confronted with further evidence that Mars harbors some kind of life or perhaps once had living things that left remains.

Science has triumphed. We are collectively experiencing the fruits of over four centuries of revolutionary scientific progress. There appears to be no obvious evidence of science censorship in these missions; everyone gets to see pretty much all the data, all at once, in nearly real time. Wonderful.

But beneath this triumph of the extension of human exploration stands another reality of that science, one that is not pleasant to contemplate.

Just at this moment of success, for those of us who most of our lives have dreamed of Martian vistas opening up, we are now all too aware of how much more human beings would be accomplishing at this time, and how fantastically better off civilization would be, were we allowed to use collectively all of our faculties and powers of reason.

But isn't science supposed to be one of the most liberating endeavors? How can I claim that we are not being allowed to use all our faculties and powers towards making a better world? Easy.

If there is even one choke-point at which such appropriate information about scientific discoveries is withheld or diminished, the community of scientists and the supportive citizenry who fund their work publicly and privately are defrauded. Sadly, today, such a choke-point exists. It is the routine censoring of scientific information that does not conform to dominant scientific paradigms of the day.

AB: Now, that's Eugene Mallove, brutally--

RH: And then, he went on to detail what exactly he was talking about.

AB: Brutally murdered today in Connecticut.

All right Richard, we are exploring Mars. We ultimately will explore our other planets. We have neighbors, they are these planets that we can look to. If we are trying to figure out what might happen to Earth, or what has happened to Earth, or even how we got here, the whole mess, we've got to study our neighbors.

And as we study our neighbors, we come to certain conclusions. And I think that's kind of the center of where we are tonight. What is it that we know about Mars or any of our other planets or close neighbors that gives us clues about our own situation?

RH: Well, the thing that brought Gene and me together, and David Wilcock, is a kind of a common thread -- which is exploration on the cutting edge of the unknown.

When we tripped over the Cydonia problem, you know, decades ago now, two decades ago, and tried to unravel, you know, if it was real, and then what did it mean, one of the key things that I've figured out with the help of Erol Torun is that there appears to be a "Message left in the ruins of an ancient Martian civilization, at a place called Cydonia on Mars.

That message had to do with the underpinnings of Reality; how Physics really works, what relates us -- as conscious beings on this planet -- to stars, the galaxy, energy processes, possible technologies that don't use oil,. 

The whole nine yards appear[ed] to be in those geometric formations [at Cydonia].

AB: How do you get that out of that? How do you get from there to there? If you would.

RH: Well, in the simplest possible nutshell, we found that the structures around the Face on Mars were not in random order. They appear to have a very precise geometric pattern.

AB: Meaning?

RH: Meaning they were laid out...

AB: No no no, I understand that. Meaning what though?

RH: Well, we then discovered that this geometry was not just "any old geometry, but appeared to be a geometry that was the underpinnings of physics in the nineteenth century. And that physics talked not about quanta, and zero-point energy, and "things that go bump in the night that can't be measured.

Like, you know, "x-teenth number of dimensions that can never be tested. It talked about higher dimensions that could be tested. Where energy could flow from "higher dimensions into our dimension, and literally create all of the Reality that we see.

AB: Well, that's pretty wild, but I don't understand what in the geometry tells you that story.

RH: That's where things get complicated. And that's where websites come in, and books, and twenty years of teaching people -- so I don't want to--

We can do that as we go through this set of examples of things we're finding in the solar system now.  But I don't want to bog down people with a tutorial, all right? I want to get to the good stuff.

AB: But that's an incredible statement to make, on this Face.

RH: The incredible part of the statement is that the same geometry that mathematicians and physicists were working with, leading to higher dimensional possibilities -- people like Reimann, back in the nineteenth century -- is the same geometry we found apparently encoded in the set of ruins on the planet Mars!

AB: David, how do you fit into this at this point. I mean, where do you fit in here?

DW: Well, here's a kid nineteen years old who reads Monuments of Mars and has his world completely turned upside down -- because everything he had taken to be reality is suddenly called into question. There is a series of relationships between clearly artificial monuments on the Cydonia plateau, which demonstrate angular relationships, certain specific angles such as 19.5 degrees.

Those angles correspond to a particular form of geometry. So, I spent years and years of my life with - at the forefront of my mind - Hoagland's model, thinking about how geometry could be affecting planets, because the basic bottom line,

AB: Let's tell everybody about 19.5. There is something that anybody can demonstrate to themselves, and that is that at about 19.5 degree point [above or below the equator] of a planet, you can observe very unusual things, evidence of energy within the planets at that 19.5 degree point. Is that accurate?

DW: Absolutely.

RH: It goes all the way from the sun through all the solid planets, like Earth that we live on or Mars, to the big gas giant planets, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, you find the largest energy upwelling on these planets at 19.5 degrees.

AB: Which is this hyper-dimensional point that you're always telling us about, and you believe a source of energy for not just our planet but all planets, right?

RH: It wasn't a matter of belief. It was when we saw this geometry, this pattern, remember all science starts with just seeing a pattern--

AB: Yes.

RH: Then we starting asking questions of people that I knew - experts in various fields - what did this pattern mean? Did anybody every notice this pattern anywhere before? And it was my friend Stan Tenen, at the Meru Foundation, you know, who's been working on Biblical texts for years and years and years...

AB: Yes, yes, yes.

RH: ...who said, "oh, that pattern is found in Coxiter and several other eminent mathematicians, and it relates to hyper-dimensional models.

Models of higher state spaces, higher realities that can not be seen, or touched or tasted -- but can be modeled mathematically as an abstract of theory and, had been used as part of the cornerstone of nineteenth century physics, when physics was just being born .. by people - [scientific] giants -- people like Faraday and others.

AB: Is it your position, Richard, that the energy at this point, this hyper-dimensional point that you're always talking about, is the source energy of much of the so-called "free energy?

RH: That's what brought us and Gene together. Because, when I laid out my take on this and he came at it from twentieth century physics and he began to see more and more anomalies, that was the beginning of our conversation.

What I said to him point blank one day was, "Gene, I don't think ‘cold fusion' is fusion at all. I think it is something different, something more fundamental, something revolutionary -- something potentially hyper-dimensional, something that is transmitted from another dimension and appears in our dimension as an anomalous energy source, under certain conditions ....

AB: But, people can see this... [that's] what I'm trying to get through to them. If you look at the 19.5 place on a planet, that much is obvious.

RH: Oh yeah, just go look at a map of the planets. Go to NASA's website and download some of those stunning globes.

AB: Right. I take it this hit you as well, David.

DW: Oh yeah, you look on Venus and you have these two volcanoes at 19.5. You look on Mars and you've got Olympus Mons, three times the size of Mt. Everest -- which is not only at 19.5, but is precisely 120 degrees west of the Face, and a hundred twenty degrees is exactly where the other tip of the [inscribed, 19.5-degree] tetrahedron would be.

RH: It's more of the same geometry.

DW: Yep, then it goes on to the Great Red Spot on Jupiter, which has been stable for at least three hundred years. Uranus has a Great Dark Spot.

AB: All of this is true folks. Check it out yourselves. There is something special about that ....

RH: And in the solar cycle, the eleven year solar cycle that you're so in love with, Art.

AB: Well, it's a love/hate relationship--

RH: That's right.

DW: (Laughs)

RH: Okay, I found years ago in an old Scientific American, one of the key solar experts, a guy named Parker, published that the peak latitude of sunspots, when the cycle peaks every eleven years, is plus or minus 19.5 degrees.

Then I found people, when I started talking about this on the air, you know, on your show and other shows, sending me little technical papers -- like we have an "electro-jet phenomenon that atmospheric scientists, upper atmosphere scientists at NASA Goddard, have been watching for years. Guess where the electro-jets are marking? They're like super-altitude jet streams, except they're electrified. 19.5 degrees north and south!

More and more and more examples of this kept coming up, over and over again -- to where I finally said, "Okay, this has got to be where we went wrong. Nineteenth century physics somehow got suborned, we took the wrong path and we went down the left road in the canyon instead of the right road out to the plain.

If the nineteenth century physicists had stayed on course, "stayed the course as George Bush Sr. would say, we would have free energy today! We would not have our guys and women dying inIraq. We would not have Bin Laden at our doorstep.

The World Trade Towers would still exist. They might be five times taller, and made out of amazing materials - because, with this kind of energy, you can do astonishing technological things.

We would probably have a garden on Earth. We would probably, you know, be able to feed everybody that's here, and those that are coming.

In other words, it's the kind of vision that Mallove had. The New Energy Age -- when people embrace the real Physics, and apply it to a Real technology, [which] will liberate us from this albatross of oil. [It a vision that Gene] could give to every human being on this planet.

And what astonished me, and you know, was part of our discussion for years and years and years, as he fought me [was], that we had found the keys to this "in a bunch of ruins on another planet!

To my intense gratification, the day that I talked to Gene -- two or three days before he died -- he acknowledged to me that "Cydonia is real, "they're about to announce life on Mars, and the [hyperdimensional] Physics that I've been talking about as [being] behind the free energy technologies that he has on tap, "is probably what's causing it to work,.

AB: Alright. Both of you hold on. God knows the world does need a very fast change, doesn't it? I think everybody out there certainly knows that in the pit of their stomach, in your gut, you know it, right? That we've got to initiate a change, and that it's gotta come very, very soon. I'm Art Bell. This is Coast to Coast AM.

5-15-2004

AB: Tomorrow night, at this time, Dr Michio Kaku is going to be my guest. He's a certainly a proponent of the idea that there are multiple dimensions. In fact, the very best theoretical physicists of our time believe that there are as many as eleven dimensions.

Now, if you've been struggling as I always have to understand what Richard calls "hyper-dimensional physics, maybe we can explain it. We can give it a try anyway. If you consider all of these worlds that do have an anomalous amount of energy that you can see, or a major flaw, or something at the 19.5 give-a-way point - even our own Earth... we'll get to that in a moment.

(Commercial continues)

AB: At one moment, there is something very mysterious about all of these things on all of these planets. By the way even the sun, I believe [has phenomena that occur], at 19.5. And even our own Earth [does as well]. Is that correct, Richard? What do we have at 19.5 here on Earth that would be...?

RH: Well, we have Hawaii. We have the big island and the big volcano on Hawaii which is analogous to Olympus Mons on Mars.

AB: So you're saying the energy is being dispersed?

RH: There is an upwelling. There is a plume of lava, and because we're on Earth (and have sensitive instrumentation), we can actually measure this.

AB: What about 19.5? Everybody knows about Hawaii. As you continue around the world, are there more remarkable?--

RH: Well, no, because what happens is you get a consolidation of the energy upwellings in a physical form, like a vortex or a volcano into one "biggie. But, if you look at earthquake data, seismic data, we know there's a plume of hot lava coming up from the outer core of the Earth. [It moves] eighteen hundred miles straight up, under Hawaii.

This plume of energy is like an arrow coming up from the core of the Earth, bursting through the crust at 19.5 [degrees]. Because of plate tectonics, because of the motion of the crust of the Earth, the plates of the Earth [passing] laterally [beside each other] like ships in the night, the upwelling punches through the crust at different positions and creates the different islands [at different times].

And, if you actually "unroll the film  -- if you reel back time and look at where the islands were millions of years ago -- you find that it's almost like you had a cigarette under a sheet of paper, and you burned a little hole in the paper, then you move the cigarette (or, you move the paper), and you burn another mark, and then another, and you have this linear chain of upwellings that burst through the surface.

AB: At 19.5, predominantly.

RH: At 19.5-- because the latitude is fixed relative to the pole.

AB: Gotcha. What about our sun, Richard, does it also have anomalies at 19.5?

RH: As I said in this paper, this critical paper I found a few years ago by Parker, who was the first to notice this -- Parker was a big solar expert in the 1950's. He noted that the peak of the sunspot cycle occurred with sunspots which are not all over the sun equally.

They basically start at around 30 to 40 degrees north [and south] latitude, and as the cycle progresses they winch their way down - a term I use very specifically - towards the equator; from both sides: the north pole of the sun, the south pole of the sun. And at the peak of the sunspot cycle, which is every eleven years, they peak at about 19.5 north and south latitude on the sun.

AB: So Richard, when we discuss this hyper-dimensional physics, are we discussing a universal truth? A truth attributed to every body in motion? The sun, the Earth, Mars, all the planets?

RH: All the individual spinning planets in this solar system, the solar system itself, all the other stars and potential solar systems that we're finding. I mean, I can bore you with--

AB:  I said "is it a universal? --

RH: Yes, it appears to be universal. What I've been trying to do for the last ten years or so is to quietly accumulate more and more mainstream scientific evidence, observational evidence which basically confirms the theory, the Model.

AB: Okay. This is observable. Everybody, who in the audience cares to try and prove it to themselves, can -- about this "19.5 point.

RH: Oh, it's a stunning pattern.

AB: But it's something we can actually see. We can verify for ourselves.

RH: Yep, yep.

AB: It seems very much this-dimensional. At least, the effects of it.

RH: Well the effects are, of course, in this dimension - this is where we live. But the cause is not in this dimension, and that's where we go back to the nineteenth century mathematicians like Cayle, and physicists like, you know, Faraday and--

DW: Whittaker...

AB: Okay, well David, good.

RH: Maxwell! -- the other guy.

AB: Maxwell, yeah, sorry, fine.

David, again you were a student of Richard's. You read his book, you obviously are on fire about--

RH: (Warmly:) A distant student...

AB:-- the meaning of all of this...

RH: We never talked, until a couple of years ago.

DW: That's correct.

AB: But I mean, in the middle of all this -- this is big stuff -- where do you fit? Kind of give me an idea.

DW: Well, what I basically saw was that there was room for the hyper-dimensional model to expand. Richard works on a number of different areas of inquiry [Mars, the hyperdimensional physics that came out of his Mars studies, the on-going politics of the cover-up, the media complicity in all that,], all of which are very important and very fruitful. I pretty much choose to [focus] on just "the physics.

Where we stand tonight is truly a magnificent place, because Richard essentially gave me an assignment [a couple months ago], and I completed the assignment, and it's an astonishing body of data that we've [now] come up with -- which is showing that the entire solar system -- not just at any one point like 19.5 -- but the planets themselves, and in many cases their moons, are showing dramatic signs of energetic increase.

This includes increasing atmospheric pressure, increasing brightness from the Aurora Borealis, increasing magnetic field strength, increasing "cataclysmic activity in many cases. I can stand here tonight and basically say to you, "Name a planet and I'll tell you what's changing about it. It doesn't even matter which one you pick, because we've got data for every single one.

AB: Mars.

DW: Mars. In 1997, on the Hubble [Space] Telescope website [http://www.hubblesite.org], the [head of Public Affairs] of NASA at the time, Don Savage, said that between the late 1970's and 1997, Mars had "developed clouds, had lost most of its dust, and had picked up a ‘surprise abundance' of ozone.

And one of the things we're talking about in this [HD] Model has to do with the emergence of this charged energy, like ozone (or plasma, as it is called) - this luminous sea of electrons, protons. This is a sign, in this new Model, of a higher degree of energy that's "bleeding through to the 3rd dimension.

The Mars Surveyor Probe was orbiting Mars in 1997 and encountered, in one area, a two hundred percent increase in atmospheric pressure from what was expected there.

RH: At a couple hundred miles' altitude!--

AB: And there's nothing to account for these [sudden] changes in this dimension. In other words, we can't [just] look at the sun, and see more output. Is there anything -- I'm looking for physical things -- that we can say account for this change. For example, in Mars I've even heard there's global warming going on and--

DW: That's correct.

AB: --on Mars. That is...

DW: Yeah. I mean, the irony is that all of this data is being released with "conventional-sounding explanations.

AB: All right, what would be a "conventional sounding explanation for "global warming on Mars? I would be very interested in that.

DW: It has to do with the ice caps, the regions that are at the poles being tilted more towards the sun -- and they [NASA] claim that because that's going on, that it warms up the planet and melts the ice caps.

AB: And they are melting, aren't they? They are melting, right?

DW: Oh, dramatically so, yeah.

RH: The problem is that the time scales don't fit.

There is something on Mars, on Earth, and many other planets called obliquity shifts. The tilt of a planet's spin to its orbit around the sun is called its "obliquity. For the Earth it's 23.5 degrees, for Mars it's 25 degrees, for Jupiter it's around 3 degrees, for Saturn it's about 27.

You know, you all see models of the solar system where you have these little canted planets rakishly titled in their orbit around the sun.

AB: Sure, absolutely.

RH: Planets' obliquities change over time. In mainstream models, this is probably due to gravitational and tidal effects between planets, even though we are millions of miles apart. This is a small point of contention [in the HD Physics Model], but let's assume that it's true.

What it means [is that] that you can construct models in the computer which will predict, you know, from here forward, or, from here back, you know, a million years, five million years, twenty million years ago, what the tilt of the planet would be, and the effect of that on the total solar insolation of the planet -- how much energy is absorbed and reflected, and what it would do to the planetary climate.

[But, because these planetary changes in obliquity occur so slowly -- over literally millions of years-- that CANNOT be used to explain the sudden, dramatic melting of Mars' poles - and its current "global warming - that we're seeing now.  Thus, the mainstream (NASA) model trying to account for these unquestionable Mars climatic changes, fails!  That leaves the HD Model.]

AB: All right Richard, hold tight for a second. David?

DW: Yes.

AB: Venus.

DW: Venus. Between 1978 to 1983, the amount of sulfur gases in Venus' atmosphere - according to Bullock and Grinspoon, in Scientific American Magazine - decreased dramatically. I'll say that again: the amount of sulfur gas, which obviously smells like rotten eggs, decreased dramatically between 1978 to 1983.

A parallel study was done between the Russian probes known as the Venera, that visited Venus in 1975, with our ground-based Keck telescopes in 1999. There was a difference noticed between the amount of brightness. There's this green light that shows up in Venus' [upper] atmosphere. In 1975, they didn't see it at all, and in 1999, it was 2500% brighter. So this is an enormous change!

RH: Two thousand, five hundred percent.

AB: Again an--

DW: Two thousand, five hundred percent.

AB: --increase in energy?

DW: Actual physical green light.

RH: It's the green light of oxygen. It's the same [spectral] line that's in the airglow over the Earth. Now here's the weird part: the Earth's oxygen atmosphere is like twenty percent, right?

AB: Yes...

DW: Right.

RH:  There's supposed to be no oxygen on Venus, at all. So where -- in the space of a couple years, a few years -- did more oxygen come from in the upper Venus atmosphere, than is present in the upper terrestrial atmosphere?

DW: And where did all the sulfur go?

AB: These are Genesis-like changes!

RH: Huge, huge!

DW: We're talking about the whole world's atmosphere [Venus is almost a twin of Earth, in size] -- all at once -- having a dramatic decline in sulfur, in [just] five years!

AB: Got it.

RH: And they initially pegged this to a "mysterious, massive volcanic eruption that must have taken place on Venus. Except, of course, Art, there's no data -- there were no observations of any volcanoes, by any spacecraft or terrestrial instruments of Venus, ever in the history of observing Venus.

They simply waved their magic wand -- this is a NASA guy that said [this] -- "Oh, it had to be a volcano because, what else could it be?

AB/DW: Right, right.

RH: The problem in science is the "What else could it be? This [deeply prejudiced thinking] is what Gene Mallove was fighting against, because the "what else is what leads us to new territory, new discoveries, and new progress!

AB: David. Jupiter?

DW: Oh man, Jupiter is just incredible. There is this donut-shaped cloud of energy that goes around in the orbit of the moon Io, which is the closest [major] moon to Jupiter. This cloud didn't even show up at all as of 1974.

[But] as of 1979, there's [suddenly] this donut-shaped, luminous cloud showing up around Jupiter. And then, between 1979 to 1995, the cloud becomes 200 percent brighter and denser.

At the same time, [Jupiters'] moon Io became a thousand percent higher in its ionosphere, which is where the charged energy goes. It [the ionosphere] was originally measured, in 1973, between 30 and 60 miles [in altitude]. In 1996, it was at 555 miles (that was from Dr Louis Frank, from NASA).

The surface of Io is actually [now] three times hotter than the surface of Mercury. Okay, now Mercury's right next to the sun. But here's Io, hanging out around Jupiter [five times farther from the sun than Earth!] -- three times hotter than the surface of Mercury -- and it increased in its surface temperature by over 200 percent between 1979 and 1998.

RH: That's not counting the volcanoes.

DW: Right.

AB: Boy. Boy oh boy. Are you beginning to see a commonality here, folks?

DW: And I'm telling you, pick a planet, it doesn't even matter.

AB: Saturn.

DW: There is an aurora that was first seen, this glowing luminescent energy seen for the first time in 1999 -- I'm sorry, '95 -- at the polar regions. Some weird stuff is going on there.

I found one study from Dr Ed Sittler et. al that shows that between 1981 and 1993, a donut of energy very similar to the one we see around Jupiter, a similar one [that exists] around Saturn, had become a thousand percent more dense and bright.

RH: These are global changes, of "geological proportion , occurring in just years, Art.

DW: Yeah.

RH: Not thousands of years, or millions of years--

AB: Just years.

RH: Right. Stunningly short periods of time.

DW: Twelve years, in this case.

AB: I've got it. That is very fast indeed. Alright, David, Earth.

DW: Earth.

AB: Earth.

DW: All kinds of good stuff. In 1998, the Van Allen belts had a new belt of energy that showed up for the first time. This was something that had never been seen before, it was basically where you have the -- I'll read you the quote -- it says,

"Activity in Earth's two known Van Allen radiation belts grew so intense in May 1998, that a ‘new belt' was created, generating excitement and awe in the scientific community.

And as we go [along], we had Richard and you talking back in February of 1996 (and I was a listener at that time), about this [shuttle] "tethered satellite.

AB: That's right.

DW: Remember that one?

AB: Clearly.

DW: [The tether] melts and, you know, this satellite -- just for the readers' sake -- I'll say that it's this satellite that's attached to this very thin wire--

AB: Listeners.

DW: --which stretches out for a long way--

RH: (Chuckles)

DW: and it just burned up. And NASA had built this thing supposedly foolproof. I found one article on CNN that was linked from these other articles that said that the tether was "foolproof". And of course, when you try to link on that one it's no longer there, and Google doesn't have it either.

RH: Well, it didn't just "burn up. This is a vivid recollection down memory lane. Because, after they deployed it -- remember it was built by the Italians -- it had this highly instrumented satellite at the end of this very long wire.

They kind of un-reeled it from a "fishing reel kind of thing in the [space shuttle] cargo bay.And. mile, after mile, after mile, it got out to its farthest appointment. They were coming over the terminator, between the sunset and nighttime side of the Earth, and it was exactly at the terminator -- over the evening terminator -- that "something happened.

They got a massive surge of current, thousands of times what they had modeled and expected from their computer calculations--

AB: Indeed...

RH: --based on other physics.

AB: That's true.

RH: And the tether burned through! They had a press conference shortly thereafter, and the guys inside [the shuttle], the astronauts, looked like "Bambi in the Headlights. They looked terrified! Because, you can imagine a "several mile long piece of wire, snapping back and forth, that could have sliced the shuttle in two!

AB: Yeah, they damn near lost it, actually.

RH: They almost lost it. They also - and this was not reported - they had massive power surges on other instruments, onboard computers, they lost two out of the three backup computers, they almost did not make it home. But no one to this day at NASA will acknowledge where all the excess energy came from. And remember, that night where that we had Bruce DePalma fromAustralia?--

AB: Yes.

RH: --or, fromNew Zealand?

AB: Yes, yes.

RH: And we talked about the DePalma experiments with the N-machine?

AB: Right.

RH: If you rotate a conductor at high speed -- even in the presence of no [moving, relative to the conductor] magnetic field -- it develops a charge at the rim -- and you can pull electron current off the rim if you put a connector between the pole and the rim.

DW: Yeah, it kind of works like a lawn sprinkler.

RH: So this goes back to Faraday in 1835; back to the nineteenth century physics again. It is called a homo-polar generator and [it] does not conform to any known physics.

AB: Well, they obviously got far more than they expected.

RH: It was a free-energy device!

AB: Well...

RH: It was an orbital free energy device.

AB: In a sense it was.

RH: And the guys who built it didn't know what was going to happen, and so they almost fried seven astronauts.

AB: Yes, I know.

RH: Now here's the bottom line on that.

AB: How does the extra energy that they experienced fit into your model?

RH: Because it's like a giant N-machine. It's like what's going on with rings of Saturn, which we're gonna get back to in a second. If you have a rotating object in orbit around the Earth, or you have the [rotating] Earth itself--

[Art,] you know you have your own little "hyper-dimensional experiment going on there out in the desert.

AB: Yes.

RH: You have this antenna that you've been talking about loud and long.

AB: I know.

RH: You've got a mile or so of wire in what, two tiers?

AB: Yeah, that's right.

RH: Lofted a couple hundred feet in the air?

AB: Not a couple hundred feet. 78, 75 feet and 68 respectively but a mile of wire, yes.

RH: Okay, you have got a conductor suspended above the planet on a rotating ball. You have a miniature free-energy, N-machine generator -- because it has nothing to do with "air or "[static] electricity.

AB: I, I know.

RH: It's not cutting through the Earth's magnetic field. It's moving with the field.

AB: Okay, Richard, we've got to hold it right there.

Well, you know, I can confirm certain aspects of that. That energy is there, in AC and DC components, on a clear, windless day. Just to preclude a lot of, you know, "Well, you're just getting static kind of calls. I've tested and tested again, and I'm telling you right [now] -- that energy is there --on a clear, windless, sunny, beautiful, still, bird chirping kind of day.

So, there you are. I don't know what it is that I've got. I guess Richard thinks he knows, but I can tell you it's real.

From the high desert in the middle of the night, this is Coast to Coast AM.

(Commercial Break)

AB: Once again, Richard C. Hoagland and David Wilcock. So the big question is: Where is the energy coming from? Is there enough energy to produce these kinds of rapid, dramatic, profound Earth changes, as in our climate flipping suddenly?

Well, there's a lot of evidence to indicate that yes, as a matter of fact there was a story last week that all of what was the Dust Bowl in the United States (a very tragic event, it was really horrible... you should do some reading about the dustbowl, God it's incredible) was produced by just a couple of degrees of ocean change temperature.

So, I don't know. Would there be energy, gentlemen, for a kind of global superstorm, a kind of thing that would have perhaps frozen plants in wooly mammoths' mouths? It flash-froze stuff down in South America, they're finding now. Even corpses, and all kinds of things. The geologists can't figure it out, so they put in on a shelf somewhere and say, "We're not gonna deal with this.

RH: Do you want the long answer or the short answer?

AB: I'll always vote for the -- when it comes to you Richard, just, don't even--

RH: And then you wonder why people ask if we have a feud going on--

RH/AB: (Laughs)

AB: Short answer, Richard.

RH: Do you remember the film, Forbidden Planet?

AB: Oh, so, well?

RH: That incredible film -- that I hope they don't remake, that would be such a tragedy, certain things should be left exactly the way they are -- remember the scene in the Krell lab, with Walter Pigeon?

AB: Yes.

RH: Who's the actor that [in other films, played] different things but [in Forbidden Planet] he played the starship commander?

AB: I don't remember.

RH: Anyway there's a scene where the doctor -- the guys name is Morbeus, the Walter Pigeon guy!--

AB: Yeah.

RH: And he's been there for twenty years, trying to figure out this incredible super-science left by this [incredibly advanced alien] race, that mysteriously vanished before the [other guy's] expedition got there.

AB: Right.

RH: And, they've now figured out that the reason they [the alien race] vanished, is because they created this incredible technology that could materialize [anything] out of nothing, just consciousness.

AB: Thought.

RH: Physical [stuff, created out of] just "thought, physical objects, and energy [that] could cut through even incredible numbers of feet of so-called "Krell super metal.

And, there is this picture -- this stunning scene, that had been done by this set designer (who was a genius, whose name I forget) -- of all these electrical meters. And you know what the old fashioned meter readouts used to look like?

AB: Times ten, times ten, times ten, times ten to infinity virtually, in other words.

RH: Yeah, exactly. Ten times ten [etc.], to the power of infinity. That is the amount of energy, Art, in hyperdimensional space -- in "hyperspace -- available to do all of the awful things you just described. There is no limit to it!

AB: All right. And I guess here's where David comes back in.

Are you saying, David, that we're now seeing on all planetary bodies, that we're able to observe sufficiently, an increase in their energy level output? I think I've got that right. You're certainly saying, yes, the answer is yes. Where do you think this is headed?

DW: Well, I want to give fair air time to my hypothesis as well as Richard's, because I think both of us are on the right track.

AB: All right, but you differ apparently -- let's hear how.

DW: Well, most of the Russians who have been looking at this stuff have simply concluded that there are separated zones of energy in the [Milky Way] Galaxy. This is an energy that Western science is not aware of.

Richard would call it "hyperdimensional energy, I might call it "torsion fields, "quantum medium, whatever-- it's the same basic stuff. The idea being that -- one really major competing hypothesis here, is that -- we're moving into an area of the Galaxy where this energy is higher.

There's one guy by the name of Dr. Sergei Smelyakov, and what he's done is to show that 2012 [is] sort of like an implosion period. If you can just imagine, briefly, that you have a bottle of salad dressing, and the oil and the water is separated and there's a nice straight line between the two.

When we look at hyperdimensional energy, there's a variety of things going all the way back to Tesla and earlier showing that, in many cases, this energy behaves similar to a fluid.

One of the things that happens when you vibrate a fluid is that geometry appears inside the fluid. It's a natural waveform, which happens to be three-dimensional. Scientists don't like that, because it's a lot harder to model a three dimensional wave than a two dimensional wave.

But this gets back to some of the Maxwell stuff, where there were [twenty] quaternions, as he called them [that he used to model the electromagnetic wave], which are basically mathematical things ["operators ], that let you make coordinates in four dimensions rather than three. That's probably the easiest way to say it.

So he [Maxwell] mapped out that even in electromagnetic energy there are these hidden, what Richard calls "scalar potentials, that are sort of pushing on that electromagnetic wave. There are tetrahedrons [four-sided "pyramids with the bottom and every face as an equilateral triangle] "hiding in there,.

So then, what we're talking about, basically, is that the very energy that underlies matter and consciousness, and the behavior of light -- the speed of light, all this stuff --can vary from one place to another. It appears that there are zones in which this energy can vary within a single galaxy.

And it also appears that 2012 represents a water line between one density and another [in our location in the Galaxy].

And it's a lot more technical than I'd really want to try to go into, but basically if you throw a little stone into a pond you get ripples, and you can see these ripples.

Well, there are ripples coming off of this "water line, and they're all partitioned based on what many people already know about, the golden mean ratio.

And every time we punch through one of these walls, we get huge earthquakes, we get the fall of major civilizations, we get the arising of new spiritual teachings. And we get the arising of new forms of measuring time.

AB: And this is a cycle that repeats...

DW: It implodes into 2012. Meaning that the closer we get to 2012, the more frequently we're gonna hit these walls.

AB: So it'll come in waves.

DW: Right.

RH: See, the difference between David's model and mine is probably the razor blade upon which this whole idea is balanced.

AB: Well, I guess it's very important, isn't it Richard. You're saying the energy is within the planets, that, that it's extra-dimensional ...

RH: No, no, no, no,

DW: No, no, that's not what he's saying.

RH: What I'm saying is the trigger mechanism to access it is different than David's model. David is using Russian work, which basically says, "We move from one region of the Galaxy to another.

AB: One into another, and we're gonna run into this energy.

RH: I'm saying that even if we didn't have a Galaxy -- if the Earth and the Sun existed all by its lonesome -- these changes would still be going on.

AB: As a result of ?

RH: Ah. Of "modulation by the movements of the [other] planets around the sun - particularly, some big guys way out there in the dark that have not yet been rediscovered by modern 21st century science. They act like potentiometers - ratcheting up and ratcheting down this energy, you know, gated in from higher dimensional space.

AB: Would one of those be the infamous Planet X?

RH: Yes, but it's not on a "collision course, it's on a circular orbit, more or less. It's permanently out there. There may be another one. If you do the numbers, it looks like we probably need two. They're in very, very long orbits,.

This new little tiny asteroid they discovered, Sedna, the other day, and announced. Don't you find it rather curious that (and again, we know we have a Space Agency that's dealing in "rituals, in "symbolism and "hidden messages ) this thing [Sedna] has an orbital period of 11,500 years?

This happens to be the Bauval age -- when Graham Hancock and Robert Bauval think that civilization, you know, last peaked on Earth and built the pyramids, and had high technology, and was wiped out by some massive terrestrial cataclysm.

DW: Quite intriguing.

RH: And .. and -- wait for the good stuff.

Do you know where the name "Sedna comes from? It's the Inuit goddess of victims! The press said it was "goddess of the sea, but when you actually read the legends, she's the goddess of victims.

It's kind of like the "in-crowd are projecting that, because of these planetary movements in this time frame, on a cyclic, recurring pattern, there will be more victims, Art. So we have a separation. We have the in-crowd that may know a little more than they're letting out in these papers.

We then have the science community publishing all these observations, and then we have David and myself putting the data together and saying, "Wait a minute. It's a different picture than the mainstream is conveying to you, and much more serious -- and we've got to pay very close attention.

AB: This is sort of a side question. But Isaac in Portland, Maine, asks this: he says, "Fascinating interview. But I can't help but think that all this increased energy and global change throughout the solar system is having a social impact on humans.

RH: Oh, he is right on.

DW: Absolutely.

RH: David, you wanna take this, and then I'll give it whack?

DW: Sure, I'd love to do that one. One of the ways that we can most benefit from this knowledge that we're sharing tonight is in understanding how we can actually harness the energy for ourselves, how we can use it.

It just so happens that there is a way in which we could help to solve the problems of the biosphere [with this knowledge], the problems that are going to be shown in this 125-million-dollar blockbuster, The Day After Tomorrow.

We're not helpless. And if there's one thing that Richard and I can do, it's to put aside any weird little differences we have in a hypothesis--

RH: (Laughs)

DW: --and get down to the truth.

So, when we're talking about biology, we're talking about something that links together whatever your different hypotheses are to some sort of common ground.

Now, it appears that when the Martians put together the Cydonia plateau, they told us about the Physics -- but they also might have been telling us about "the Physics -- because they knew that, on a predictable, cyclical pattern, the kind of changes that we're seeing right now, would be happening [again].

They may have also given us the solution -- in that the actual message is encoded in giant pyramids.

AB: Well, if they had "the solution -- then why are they gone!?

DW: I think they basically started doing it too late. I think they discovered the technology too late, they started to build the pyramids because they knew what they would do, but they hadn't started it soon enough and they ran out of time.

RH: I have a little different take on it, Art.

AB: All right.

RH: And again, we're leaping now to the end of the story - and, you know I hate doing that. I like to document it, so people can get to where we're going [independently].

AB: Right, just play along.

RH: No, I can do that.

I think that the Mars [situation is a testament] to what human beings have done, over and over and over again -- which is to basically kill themselves off!

I think we're looking at the end product of a cataclysmic war -- which wound up with the literal destruction of some [planetary] members of the ancient solar system! And when that happened, this Physics -- which used to work like a well-oiled machine, like a perfectly tuned Accutron watch -- became broken.

Now, here's where you have to understand a little bit [more] of how the Physics works. It isn't a static [solid] geometry. In other words, we're not looking at "tetrahedrons and planets with, you know, vertices [i.e. tips of the tetrahedron, as if it were a physical structure inside the Earth, or other planets] poking out through the crust.

We're looking at resonance patterns in the aether, mediating the energy between dimensions. So it's kind of like sound waves, or any other kind of wave form.

You get what are called "standing wave patterns. And those patterns can look solid [like an embedded geometric structure], but in fact, they're all energy. They're just basically "patterns of energy in empty space.

AB: Well, that sounds an awful lot like David was describing. The Russian's area -- that we're going to be "bumping into.

RH: But the "empty space I'm talking about, I'm talking about the space of the solar system. Forget the Galaxy, and just think about the solar system. The nine (plus maybe two more) planets, orbiting around the sun (with little satellites orbiting around them).

As they wheel around each other, these energy patterns caused by the spinning of each of the massive planets [together with their orbiting motions], cause David's "ripples in the pond. That's an excellent analogy, all right.

But, imagine if you had moving ripples on a stationary pond, where you have overlapping rings. You would have "interference patterns. You'd have "constructive and destructive interference.

If everything was perfectly positioned and timed, spinning at the right synchronized rate, it would all be like one extraordinary orchestra of music -- something like the most amazing cantata or symphony ever written -- where there's not one discordant note.

But what happens if you eliminate a major section of the orchestra, blow it up?! Alright?--

You wind up with discordance.

You wind up with waves that interfere, as opposed to constructively reinforcing [each other]. And the solar system [in this Model] that we're living in, is a "broken solar system following the Catastrophe, the War, that resulted in the disappearance of "the guys on Mars , who, eventually, were a tiny fragment of "us that appeared here.

If that's true, if we're living in the decayed ruins of the former glory of a system that [once] worked perfectly, that was perfectly in tune, then, the Physics is [now] "broken -- and these periodic catastrophes, Art, these upwellings and "massive energy increases, and all the other things that we're seeing, are not part of the "normal functioning of the system; they are because it's broken.

And we must use our knowledge of this Physics -- while we have time! -- to figure out how to fix it on the one place where we are still living, which is namely, "planet Earth!

DW: We actually have a way to [address these problems on Earth] that does not violate national security, does not reveal unforeseen technological advances, but which could actually reduce or eliminate a lot of the problems that we're having.

AB: How would you fix it?

DW: You remember the work of Dr. John DeSalvo?

AB: Vaguely.

DW: [He was] talking about the Giza Pyramids, and that there were scientists in Russia who have built these 144-foot-tall pyramids [with a steep 75-degree slope angle unlike the 52-degree angle of the Great Pyramid] out of [cheap] fiberglass and PVC plastic [tubing].

[No metal can be used in the construction of these pyramids or else the effects do not occur.] And basically, some of the things that have happened, include things that would really be able to help the environment in such a dramatic way that it seems pretty clear that any planet, when it gets to a certain level of sophistication, is naturally going to make use of this [advanced hyperdimensional technology].

AB: What are you suggesting could be done with a "pyramid? What in the experiments that the Russians did would suggest that the "pyramids have the power to do anything at all?

DW: Okay, let's say for example that we want to save the oil fields. We want to get more oil out of the ground, while we're making a transition to free energy.

AB: Okay.

DW: There was an academy in Moscow known as the Gubkin Moscow Academy of Oil and Gas. They built some pyramids over [their domestic Russian] oil wells -- and they discovered that the viscosity, the thickness of the oil under the pyramids, decreased by 30 percent. This also caused an increase in production by 30 percent -- compared to all the surrounding wells.

AB: Easier to bring up.

DW: Yep.

RH: And domestically [in theUnited States], we have huge [numbers of] oil wells in the Midwest, in Texas, in the Panhandle, in Oklahoma, that have basically stopped producing at an economic level -- because they're basically sludge.

AB: You're saying we need big pyramids over them?

RH: If this were tried here in the United States, and had the same results as happened in the old Soviet Union, we could go domestically for a lot of what we're importing now [from the tinder box of the Middle East] -- and we could reduce our dependence and all the concomitant problems that [this] is currently engendering.

AB: All right, hold it right there gentlemen. Richard C. Hoagland and David Wilcock are my guests. We're discussing a universal energy source that we're right in the middle of. It's all around us. We're also, of course, discussing the death -- the murder -- of Eugene Mallove, somebody who was leading the charge toward that energy. Bad news for this night. I'm Art Bell.

(Commercial break)

AB: Interesting. Bob in Lincoln, Nebraska says that Richard has relied too much on Science. Bob from Lincoln says, "We are the ones that are broken. We are the ones that are broken, not the universe. We are the energy of everything. All that is. Now, that's a slightly, perhaps, egotistical point of view but who knows?

RH: Well, let me address Bob, okay? Because we didn't say "the Universe is broken. I said this solar system. We are one solar system--

AB: It's all that will matter to us anyway...

RH: --out of four hundred billion stars in the Milky Way alone. But we're one place where we know we're alive and conscious, and we now have astonishing evidence that "something came before.

That's why I was so gratified that Gene really, really -- before he died - got, unmistakably, that this [extraterrestrial archaeology] is science, we've got the data, and he was feeling that we were on the verge of a breakthrough in our area [of proving a former, incredibly advanced civilization on Mars].

Like he said [in that same phone call] he thought he was on the verge of [a political] breakthrough in this [new energy/cold fusion] area -- where he fought so many years, and so hard.

AB: If you go to where these pyramids are here on Earth, Richard, you encounter a man known as Zahi Hawass.

RH: Ah, yes, yeah.

AB: And I stood in the desert next to one of the-- next to the Great Pyramid, actually. And Dr Zahi said [Art speaks in mock Egyptian accent:] "If you thinks these are machines, then you are cra-zee, as all of the other conspiratorial people on the globe in the Earth right now.

They are crazy! This is not a machine... I couldn't even imitate his voice, "...it was built by Egyptians. It's not even this and that. But it's not a machine, it's a joke!

RH: Art, Art, the pyramids were "machines . They were an astonishing legacy of a super science, a hyper-imensional science that Gene and I were discussing, that came and went -- and probably was left as kind of the terrestrial marker for the kind of science that we have to reinvent, if we are going to save ourselves as the years progress.

AB: Do you recall, as the year 2000 came about, you two, as we were coming up to the "Big Change, Zahi said that there was going to be a capstone put back on the Great Pyramid?

DW: I remember that.

AB: That was a big deal. I talked to Zahi about that and his eyes got bright and he was so excited...

RH: Do you know why it was a "big deal?

AB: Well, I'm thinking you'll tell me.

DW: Esoteric symbolism.

RH: Exactly. If you go to enterprisemission.com (and David will give a plug for his website [www.ascension2000.com]), but if you go to Enterprise tonight you'll find a multi-chaptered saga which we titled "The End of Days .

I think we've got five parts of it up there now, and we're working on a sixth. We started doing it at the 2000 crossing point, because we noticed, among other things, that Zahi was very, very eager to have this high level celebration--

AB: He was, yes.

RH:--in the desert, around the pyramids, on 2000. That was the same moment, by the way -- when we crossed from 1999 to 2000 -- and you and I shared that night, remember, Art?, where we found that the Ball that's lowered at Times Square had exploded into this stunning, multi-faceted, spinning tetrahedral symbol, which has all these little tetrahedrons spinning around.

The in-crowd was telling us -- right on global television -- "This is how the world and the background of reality really works. So there -- take it, there's nothing you can do with it -- because we hold it.

AB: All right. I have more trouble with symbology, and I don't always see it...

RH: Let me finish.

AB: Like I don't see the stuff [on Mars], I see the rocks and...

RH: We don't want rumors of a feud to start! Let me finish.

AB: All right, sure.

RH: When I started looking at the celestial mechanics, because -- remember, in our model of the Physics -- it's all timed to celestial positions within and around the solar system--

--by the way, with one homage to David, the Galaxy is important -- but only in terms of the center of mass, the Center of the Galaxy.

The solar system is slowly moving into an alignment on the Winter Solstice in the Northern Hemisphere, on December 21, 2012, with the center of the Milky Way - the biggest spinning mass of our neighborhood--

DW: Yep, he's right.

RH: --so to speak. Only 26,000 light years away.

It's these spinning masses that trigger the shifts and the ducting of energy. And if the system is not capable of handling it -- if the energy is dissonant, if "the music] is off key... think of "running fingernails over a blackboard.

AB: Try to explain to me how pyramids, properly placed -- and I presume operating with capstones or whatever -- would affect this otherwise discordan--

RH: That's not what Zahi was trying to do.  What Zahi was trying to do was strictly symbolic.

AB: I know what Zahi, I know what Zahi was, what I'm asking is, though--

RH: Well, let me, can I finish where we were going?

AB: Yes.

RH: Because, as we were looking at this run-up to 2012, and how any of this could make sense to any rational person, I tripped over a remarkable piece of astronomical information.

A key factor in the whole Egyptian mythology and cosmology is the star Sirius, right?

AB: Mm hm.

RH: She stands for "Isis -- the goddess of fertility, and "the mother of Mankind, and all that.

AB: Yes.

DW: The Statue of Liberty.

RH: Yeah. If you imagine that we have lines going from the North Pole from the South Pole, going across the Equator -- like the line at Greenwich, where the day begins -- that's the modern equivalent of the ancient line that went from the pole down through the Great Pyramid, and [on] down to the South Pole.

That used to be the [Prime] Meridian of the Earth.

So, what I did was, I set up a calculation and I looked out as if I was standing in the King's chamber [of the Great Pyramid], and the Pyramid was transparent. I was looking towards the south, at midnight, on that "magic night [December 31, 1999] -- when Zahi wanted to do his Big Ceremony...

...And by the way, invite about half of the big wigs from all over the planet, including George Bush Sr., and the Prince of Wales, and God knows who else, in that desert ceremony. You knew that was part of the plan, right?

AB: I knew it was magnificent, yes.

RH: The biggest party ever thrown. But it was the wrong date! The Millennium, as we know, was 2000 to 2001. Not "1999 to 2000. And no wiggling the figures can make a fact "wrong or "right -- the numbers are "the numbers.

So I kept asking myself, "Why do they want to have this huge planetary party on the wrong night? A year ahead of when it should be taken care of,?

It turned out very simply that that was the night for the only time -- get this David -- in galactic history, when Sirius crossed the Meridian, the ancient Giza Meridian -- precisely at midnight.

DW: Aha!

RH: From then on, it is to the East of the Meridian (and it was to the West before). So that was like a dividing line...

AB: I know this has great meaning for Richard, but I...

RH: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We're not getting to the good stuff yet.

If you look at that line -- where it is in the sky -- and you extend that line (like a celestial Meridian) out into space, so it goes through, you know, where Sirius is in the sky, if you track twelve degrees to the East -- one degree per year (which is how Sirius will move, in relation to the Earth, and in relation to the Galactic Center) -- when that alignment occurs at midnight at 2012 -- that will be the Winter Solstice, and "D-Day will have arrived!

In other words, that [planned Giza 2000] Ceremony marked the beginning of a 12-year [countdown] "clock!

DW: Right -- I got it!

RH: The final countdown to "something , happening in 2012 -- by these guys, led by Zahi, who know "something ,  that they are not wanting the rest of us to figure out!

AB: All right, I'm going to try to ask again. What I want to know, Richard is [this.] You both have indicated that these pyramids have the potential to save the planet from what otherwise is going to occur; to use this energy...

RH: Okay, what's the most massive catastrophe you could imagine on Earth?

AB: An unaltered, continued course that we're on right now!

DW: (Laughs)

RH: Okay, I'm not talking human-generated. I'm not talking social devolution or people fighting, or resources, or--

AB: Well, I'm not sure it's not all mixed up together, because it is.

RH: I'm talking big natural catastrophe. What's the biggest natural catastrophe you could imagine for this planet?

AB: I could imagine a lot of them Richard, I...

RH: The biggest one... come on...

DW: OK, I'll say it. Pole shift.

RH: Exactly.

AB: Okay, fine.

RH: If the pole flips over, we are a 78% surface area of water. You get what's called the "slosh effect -- and oceans slosh over the continents at a thousand miles per hour, scouring everything down to bedrock!

The atmosphere whistles across the plains at a thousand miles an hour, scouring everything down to bedrock. There's almost nothing left, if the planet physically flips over in space. I'm not talking a magnetic shift, I'm talking a physical flip from one obliquity orientation - dramatically, in a heartbeat -- to another obliquity orientation!

AB: And again my question is: how do we prevent this catastrophic event from occurring? What is it that "pyramids do, and how do they do it? What do we know about that?

RH: Well, here's where we get interesting. What we believe the pyramids were trying to do -- built by the prior civilization -- and when I say "we, I mean me, and Hancock, and Bauval -- and I don't know if David and I were talking about this, I don't know whether David is even on the same--

DW: Yeah, we're on the same page here.

RH: Okay, I might have imagined! You know [Art], we're coming at this from two different directions -- but we're parallel here.

What the pyramids were trying to do, Art, was stave off -- through resonance vibrations, connecting to hyperspace -- the catastrophic interference pattern that results in the Earth literally flipping over, seeking what's called "a new degree of freedom.

When you have -- think of the model of the atom -- when you have electrons orbiting around protons in hydrogen--

AB: Yes.

RH: And every once in awhile, you'll have a little electron go flip. It does that because it cannot handle the energy coming into in its current state. It must change its orientation to an anti-parallel spin, so that it "equalizes out the waves , so that the "music is harmonious, as opposed to discordant. It really is kind of like "celestial music.

What seems to happen is, in the "broken condition of the solar system, the broken condition of the Earth, when the energy [starts] mounting in the background -- which is what all this planetary data that we are now [compiling shows us, which] we're going to put on the Enterprise website in a three part series, beginning in the next couple of days...

(We've got part one up there tonight. You can go to enterprisemission.com and read it, it's right at the top of the page.) We'll have the two parts showing all the data, all the sources, all the institutions, all the evidence [to prove] that "something BIG is building up all over the solar system,.

When that "building crescendo hits -- the Earth can't take it. It must do "something, physically, to reorient itself to the frequencies and the vibration of the energy, because [otherwise] it's a "massive overload.

It's like a huge short-circuit. So, what it does is it reorients its physical spin axis. It also changes the rate of the day length (and it may even change the orbit a little bit) -- but the primary effect is, it reorients the spin axis, where most of the energy is stored, and then it comes to equilibrium again, for the next 12,000-plus years.

We do not want that to happen!

That is "bad for beagles and begonias, as Carl Sagan used to say. It wipes out almost everybody when this "hits the fan!

So what do the ancients try to do? They try to build, in essence, a "modulator -- an energized modulator, which is the Great Pyramid, made of limestone, six million tons of limestone. 

Connected to God knows how many gigatons of [more] limestone, in a band of seventy-million-year old limestone [that] stretches from Giza all the way toIndonesia in the crust of the Earth. Ancient, ancient, ancient coral reefs. This material, the limestone, is an operative, active, hyperdimensional medium.

5-15-2004

AB: Okay. All right. I've got it. Okay. Richard, then, the people who did it on Mars, and the people who did it on Earth, both were unsuccessful. So--

DW: Well, maybe and maybe not. What if most of these pyramids were built after something had already happened, and by building them they actually stabilized things and got [the Earth] back to working order a lot faster than otherwise would have happened?

RH: That's a viable idea. A very viable idea.

AB: A possibility, I suppose.

DW: But see, they learned about it too late, whereas we know about it now.

RH: Or, they were prevented [from doing it earlier] by all the nonsense and chicanery that's going on now, where you keep killing people off who try to introduce the way physics really works.

Remember [if the Physics of] a hundred years ago [had never been politically diverted] Art, we wouldn't be having the same conversation; we would be surrounded by this technology -- this Physics, this Knowledge, and there would be ample time to do major, huge, important things to "even out the music , so the planet does not flip.

DW: You know, let me kick in one thing. Bush just asked for 24 billion dollars for us to continue fighting this war inIraq. Our rough guesstimate calculations are that for 150 million, which is only a percentage of one billion, we could build a worldwide network of these pyramids -- that would increase the production of these oil wells, purify water for people who don't have sanitation right now, [and] do things such as reducing the overall amount of earthquake activity.

AB: David, can you prove it on scale?

DW: Sure! The Russians have done it!

RH: The Russians already demonstrated it. Go to David's website -- I'm sure there's a link there -- you can read the papers yourself. In the mainstream Soviet literature, they did it. They've been doing a lot of things that the West doesn't "know about.

AB: I know. I know that's true. And you're saying the Russians built pyramids over oil wells...

RH: Over old, defunct oil wells.

AB: Uh huh...

RH: And increased their production by twenty to thirty percent.

DW: Thirty percent! [The fuel crisis of the 1970s was due to a 7% worldwide shortage.]

AB: Through thinning the viscosity, right?

DW: Yeah. [The pyramids also reduced the amount of unwanted material in the crude oil, such as gums, wax and pyrobitumen.]

AB: So that production increased, and they got just that much more out of it.

RH: Yeah, one of the side effects is [that the pyramid technology] changes molecular viscosities. There are umpteen experiments in labs all over the world. I mean, if we were to go and do the same thing for physics and chemistry that we're trying to do for planetary science in this [upcoming] three-part ["Interplanetary ] paper-- we'd have the work for the next decade cut out for us!

It's just, Art, that no one has assembled this data into a coherent, different paradigm picture of what's really going on. We're stuck with some very old ideas. And my question -- and this is going to sound almost treasonous-- is, are we stuck with this through ignorance, or, because somebody wants a lot of people to die!?

DW: Well, it's worth thinking about.

AB: I suppose it is, I...

RH: You remember years ago, a book came out called Alternative 3.

AB: Yes.

RH: And initially I dismissed it as pure bunk.

AB/DW: Yes.

RH: And I'm sure you did too. The closer we get to this date [2012], and the more I learn and the more I see going on, and the more the Physics comes together, and the predictive data -- you know, the dots all match up -- I'm wondering now if that [Alternative 3] was the prescription for what a few "in the know are planning to do, while the rest of us basically, you know, kiss our you-know-what goodbye?

DW: Well, I had somebody from black ops tell me that the so-called astronaut named Grodin [in Alternative 3] was actually an anagram for Gordon, and we're not talking about the guy whose first name is Gordon, we're talking about an astronaut whose last name was Gordon, and that a lot of that stuff [in the book, and the BBC "documentary ] actually was true.

What Alternative 3 said way back in the 70's was that the whole solar system was going to be heating up, and "Mars would become a more viable place to live as a result.

AB: Gentlemen, hold on. This is Alternative 3 for me! I've got to break. We've got the news coming up. Certainly talking of cosmic things this morning, aren't we?

What do you feel about it as you listen to all these different people, of all these different -- oh, what's the right word -- all these different persuasions: remote viewers, the Hopi, intuitives - people like Richard C. Hoagland and David? We'll be right back.

(Commercial Break)

AB: Geologically, I have no problem whatsoever believing that the magnitude of the changes that we're discussing right now have occurred in the past. We have evidence of that; we just sort of put it up on the shelf and ignore it. But you really can't. It did happen.

I think most of us in the pit of our stomach know that it happened, and that it can happen again. Once again my guests, Richard C. Hoagland, David Wilcock. Gentlemen.

An email which I just happened to grab very quickly: "The program tonight seems to indicate that the size of the pyramid has the ability to focus the energy from the cosmos.

If the fluid parameters of oil have changed, as demonstrated by what you said in Russia, imagine what would happen if the surface tension of biochemical reactions were changed? All reactions in our body require this surface tension, or contact with molecules, to cause biochemical reactions. Jerry from Vista, California.

So, comments?

RH: David?

DW: Well, the pyramid power that we're talking about goes well beyond simply technical things. When you start getting into biology science, it gets even more bizarre and interesting. Let me give you a couple examples which are really fascinating.

The first one was done by the Ivanovskii R&D Institute of Virology within the Russian Academy of Medical Science. Now, this is mainstream stuff. You gotta remember the Soviet Union, prior to 1991, was toe-to-toe with theUS [technically].

AB: Sure.

DW: But then, when they collapsed, you have these scientists who are literally living on 30 dollars a month, who have the time and the incentive to do this pyramid research. So anyways, Klimenko and Nosik  from this Ivanovskii R&D Institute [studied] a drug called venoglobulin --which is a naturally occurring compound in a human being's blood that fights viruses.

When they diluted this drug down to 50 micrograms per milliliter, and stored it in the pyramid for a short time, it became three hundred percent more effective at killing viruses.

Another one which I find really fascinating came from the R&D Institute of Pediatrics, Obstetrics, and Gynecology, headed by A.G. Antonov. They took a solution of 40% glucose in distilled water and put it in the pyramid, and all they gave was one milliliter of this glucose to 20 different premature babies with compromised immune systems.

The babies that were given this formula had their health increased to rapidly practical and normal levels, whereas the control group had no real change.

AB: God, these are incredible things you're saying. So if these things are true, then why wouldn't science in the West say, "Oh my God, and "Let's see if we can duplicate that experiment ?

RH: Well?--

DW: Money.

RH: --given that we've had fifteen years of "non-progress in the so-called cold fusion area -- where we have a stunning experiment, with eminently world-class reputable scientists in Utah, with an astonishing support from the Congress (because I know Robert Roe enacted legislation to try to move to help them almost immediately).

How do I know this? Because I had a meeting with him on the Mars question [in 1989 - right after the Pons and Fleischman announcement].

He was the head of the House Science Committee. I had a meeting on Cydonia, and one of the things we discussed back then, in 1989, was cold fusion and how he was moving to get the [Science] Committee to help. Do you know what happened to Robert Roe?

He was first drummed out of his House Chairmanship, he then was drummed out of the House itself, and [then] he, sideswiped and almost killed a woman and her little girl one dark night, because he was basically an alcoholic.

He fell from the supreme science position in the US Congress, to a drunk -- because "something intervened in his career, and what he wanted to do to help Pons and Fleischman, and to help me with Cydonia, redounded to his profound detriment.

You want to know why this stuff is not mainstream? There is a control mechanism. There is censorship. It is as Gene Mallove said, in his last editorial, "It is the evil, the invisible evil of science and politics, in the 21st century...

AB: Why would the West, and modern science in the West, want to suppress something that could save all of humanity?

RH: How is science funded?

AB: By government...

RH: And where does government get its money?

AB: From us.

RH: It picks our pockets, right?

AB: Yeah.

RH: It decides what [are the] priorities, it decides what's "nonsense and "pseudo-science. In order for a scientist to maintain a living, to put his kids through school, to pay for his car, to keep a roof over his head, he has to get grants.

If the only trust you get a grant from is from agencies that tell you what is "acceptable and not acceptable, you quickly learn to fall in line with what's "acceptable. Gene said, in our last conversation--

AB: But that's not answering my question, that's the business end of what you consider to be a conspiracy. My question was--

RH: But without "business you have no "science , anymore.

AB: But my question was, Richard, really, if we understood it to be of this magnitude, why would we be suppressing something--

RH: Who is "we, Kemosabe?

AB: Well, whatever group you imagine to be doing this, would stop--

RH: How about the National Science Foundation? How about Science magazine? How about Nature?

AB: How about ‘em?

RH: They have what's called -- Gene used to call it -- "sneer review , where you basically can be attacked [anonymously, by other "scientists ]. In fact, let me get a specific--

AB: But my overall question is not being answered. Why would we want to block a technology?

RH: But we don't! "We are not in charge!

AB: I'm not, I don't mean you, Richard, and you David. I mean us collectively.

RH: No. "We -- the collective body of "Americans, or, the collective body of the citizens ofItaly orFrance orGermany -- we're not in charge! "Somebody else is, and they dictate our reality, they dictate the rules, they dictate the funding -- and those who do not go along pay awful prices, up to, and maybe including, the "ultimate price.

AB: But if, "they, in quotes -- whoever in the hell "they are -- understood the magnitude of what's going to occur around 2012--

RH: Who says "they intend to be here when it "hits the fan? That's back to the Alternative 3 model.

DW: And you're also dealing with religious beliefs.

AB: Where do you think they plan to be?

RH: Okay, remember when I came to Nevada and I showed you some things, and I sent you a piece of video and I asked you sit on it for a year. The STS-80 video.

AB: I recall extremely well, yes.

RH: And you saw --and then ultimately Whitley wound up putting it on NBC-- what looked to be like extraordinary spaceships cavorting around in Earth orbit, that are light years beyond the shuttle?

AB: Yes.

RH: And my [political] model is that they aren't "aliens, they aren't ET's ... they are ours. They're part of a secret, black-budget program that had been going on ever since 1947 when, according to your friend, a certain Phillip Corso, we back-engineered a stunning hyper-dimensional propulsion and energy technology, and have quietly put it to use in the military, in a black-ops program.

And I believe they intend, whoever these "they are, to take a bunch of their cronies and friends, and when the going gets tough, they will get going --

Probably to Mars.

Now, back during the heyday when Hubble was broken. Remember Hubble being broken?--

AB: Yes.

RH: --it couldn't take a decent picture, if its life depended on it -- I'm walking through the airport in O'Hare, in Chicago, one afternoon, and I happen to see on the newsstand this extraordinary color cover image of Life magazine.

And it's a picture of Mars -- in full color -- taken by the "broken Hubble telescope. At that point, because I was kind of close to Hubble (remember the school project I had in Washington, where we had the Hubble guys coming in and talking to the kids?), I knew a lot about what was going on [with Hubble].

I said to myself, "Why in the world, in the middle of their ‘crisis,' are they taking pictures of Mars with this damn broken telescope?

The title of that Life cover was, "Our Next Home.

I wonder who that cover was directed to,?

AB: I don't know. To imagine with you, Richard, all of this is to imagine that somebody's making a pretty poor bet, if their bet is "to hell with Earth, we're gonna let it go through a cyclical change, without trying to harness whatever powers your suggesting to me can change it - the pyramids - and we're gonna go racing off to Mars where we're gonna have a jolly old time while everybody else on Earth dies.

I mean, just, it just doesn't make sense to me that that would be a plan of anybody. I mean it's not such a good bet, Richard, right now, going to Mars and abandoning a dying Earth.

RH: I'm not quite sure what your problem is. That, they wouldn't have the audacity to do it? They wouldn't have the technology? They wouldn't have the money? They wouldn't have the secrecy? They wouldn't have the instinct? They wouldn't have the motivation? Where's the problem in the model, in the theory?

AB: Well, Mars doesn't look like a warm Caribbean island, Richard. It doesn't look--

RH: But -- if it's the only place you can go and not get blown to smithereens, because the planet's gonna tip over, it's kind of, you know ...  remember the old joke, about "where does an 800 pound gorilla sleep?

AB/RH: Anywhere it wants to.

RH: We have people living tonight at the bottom of the world -- in frigid, absolutely minus-120-degree-below temperatures, and howling 60 to 80-mile-an-hour gale winds --right?

AB: Yes we do.

RH: And we used to have them powered by nuclear power, before the environmentalists chucked the nukes out of McMurdo. So we're trucking in lots and lots of oil [now] to keep the gas burners going and the generators going, and in that bubble down there, that geodesic dome (courtesy of Bucky Fuller), we have men and women --and you and I have discussed very strange things going on at the bottom of the world, have we not?--

AB: We have.

RH: --that have lived in "a little bubble of technology and light -- in the middle of such desolation and such privation and cold, that you could not survive outside ten minutes --  unprotected -- right?

AB: Yes.

RH: Mars is far more benign than the Antarctic.

AB: It's still not a cakewalk.

RH: But with proper technology, and all the money they can "pick from your pocket and mine -- that no one ever is tracking -- a few, a thousand, ten thousand, a hundred thousand, whatever number you think is "the few -- could keep the human race alive, when the rest of it goes to "heck in a hand basket!

AB: Why let that happen, Richard?

RH: Because, they may not know they can do anything different!

Remember what my old Intel friend used to say, and says to me again and again when he talks to me. He says, "The lie is different, at every level.

DW: Yep.

RH: If you look at some of the things that are written about these catastrophes, by those that are most "in the know, they themselves think it is unstoppable. It's like, you know, I used to have a girlfriend and she was into astrology, and one day she looked at me and she said, "I can't fight the planets. They're bigger than I am!

And I'm looking this problem in that vein, that we have been taught that you "can't fight Mother Nature. The best that you can [do is to] kind of "come to a truce, maybe a stand-off -- a Mexican stand-off - but you can't really intervene, and you can't really change your fate if your planet decides to throw what it's going to throw against you. Isn't that the basic story of "The Global Superstorm?

AB: Yes, well--

RH: That, you get the hell out of the way, you can't do anything about it!

AB: Yes well, the archeological side of it, I'm afraid is on the side of this occurring.

RH: But it doesn't say that you have to keep repeating the "sins of the Fathers. Maybe we can be smarter this time around. Maybe we can get enough people to take us seriously. And the cool part, Art, the part that David and I are in 100-percent agreement on, is that we don't have to invent anything.

Because we know, from data that's leaked out in a variety of ways, and that piece of [NASA] video that I gave to you, we know the black-ops boys have all the necessary technology to at least begin to tackle the problem -- if they are of a mind to.

It's up to us to make them "of a mind to.

AB: David, do you agree with all of that, for the most part? Or if you disagree, where?

DW: I see that, for example, you probably heard about this Area 51 scientist Dr Dan Burisch.

AB: Yes, but I followed that trail, David, and I'm not at all satisfied--

RH: Neither am I.

AB: --with the genuine aspect of that, (all three crosstalk simultaneously, inaudible)

DW: You've got to hear where I was going, though.

AB: I'd love to hear where you are going, and will in a second. I'm just telling you that I interviewed some people who were supposedly in communication with this man. And I did not find reliable or test-worthy any of what was said to me. Having said that, and I really wanted to say it, go ahead and say what you were going to say.

DW: Well, I just wanted to point that if anything of what he said was true, an article I wrote [The Matrix is a Reality, http://ascension2000.com/04.10.03.htm] was one of only about two website links that he used in his summaries.

So that was a big event for me, because I realized that if this guy is for real, then the stuff that Richard and I are working on is cutting edge even for them. So the intel that you and the audience are hearing tonight is as hot, as cutting edge, as fresh as if you were in Area 51, sitting in a small little briefing room and having access to this compartmentalized information.

They don't know that "the Physics can make a difference! The Alternative 3 -- the "three alternatives -- are ridiculous. We're talking about ["alternatives ] like "blowing holes in the atmosphere, to let the heat out. All you have to do, in order to understand how this Physics works, is basically get down to what's really happening at the quantum level, how is matter created. Gravity--

AB: We're out here really dancing on the edge, in my opinion.

RH: Wait, wait, wait. According to Gene Mallove, in that last conversation (and again, I'm thinking about how incredibly prescient the things he said [were] and the things I said in that last conversation), where Gene was, when he died, is that current physics -- including quantum mechanics, relativity, zero-point, all of it -- is garbage.

DW: Yep.

RH: It's bunk. Complete garbage, Art. And what replaces it is something akin to what David and I have been talking about tonight, and this was from Mallove himself.

The proof of this is in the experiments conducted by reputable, exquisitely genius-level people who have actual equipment and technology that is available to be seen on videos, or in person, and certainly funded for development -- and they can not get a dime of funding.

In fact, his entreatment to me in our conversation was, "Dick, if you know of anybody who has an extra ten or twenty thousand dollars to put into our non-profit foundation, so we can fund some of these critical experiments and keep these people alive, please let them know.

And I said to him, and this is incredibly ironic, I said, "Gene you need to come back on ‘Coast' and tell the Country what you've got in that drawer, and he said, "I would love to.

DW: I saw the film [of the kind of devices in that drawer in action.]

RH: And, two days later, he can't do it.

AB: But it is important that we... I don't know, I felt when we started down the Burisch trail. Richard, you've looked into...

RH: No, I have looked at Burisch and I think it is complete disinformation.

AB: I do too.

RH: I think it is complete nonsense. It is more noise. It's like when you get to the end part of this game, Art.

AB: Well, if you don't separate the noise, Richard--

RH: You gotta separate it.

AB: --from the signal, then you're not going anywhere.

RH: That's right. And you gotta be very fine tuned, and know when your BS detector is really being tickled. The Burisch thing, to me, it reeks of disinformation.

AB: Okay, we agree on that.

DW: Yeah, I don't disagree either. [I believe that Burisch is telling the truth as it has been shown to him, but that he is not fully receiving the truth - including the data from the alleged ETs themselves.]

RH: Apart from that, apart from that the fact that Mallove has stood behind in public some stunning technologies, technologies that go back to the work of Wilhelm Reich. Now, that's a name you should remember, Art.

AB: Yes, of course.

RH: Wilhelm Reich was a medical doctor, and he got into something called Orgone energy, which was never really understood. He tried to get Einstein to take it seriously, and there was some conversation there and Einstein did not really duplicate a key experiment.

So ultimately, he passed, but the fact is that the people that Gene has worked with, in the lab that he set up, have done stunning confirmations of almost everything that Wilhelm Reich wrote about. And you know what happened to Reich in the 1940's? They ultimately arrested him--

DW: Yeah, he died broken-hearted.

RH: --locked him in prison, and killed him.

AB: And of course, Tesla.

RH: Then we go back to Tesla.

AB: Tesla has to mix into all of this.

RH: It's like the old joke about the guys, you know, all the blind guys handling the elephant: one's got the trunk, one's got the leg, one's got the tail.

We're all talking about the same stuff. It just has different names. And the stuff that Gene was talking about as the ultimate Creator of reality, which goes from beagles to begonias, in other words consciousness and life and biology and human beings and the spark of the soul that makes us alive and aware and questioning, as well as the sun and the Galaxy and Andromeda and anything out there...

It's all part of the same stuff. It is this invisible, massless aether, with which Gene fundamentally can create anything under the right conditions. [You] can reform reality in any form you want, under the right conditions, and that in turn is modulated by the transfer between higher dimensions and this 3-D reality.

AB: All right, gentlemen, hold tight. Richard C. Hoagland, David Wilcock and truly a galaxy-like discussion. It comes again and again and again. I wonder if this next time we'll be able anything at-all about it.

(Commercial Break)

AB: Of this morning's show, I tell you, I buy the cyclical event part with regard to Earth. There's plenty of evidence to back that up. It has happened, it will happen again. I might even buy where the energy comes from to achieve this change. The hyperdimensional physics aspect of it.

I think when you look at the 19.5 evidence, there's plenty of support for it there. So I buy almost all of that. In fact, once again, plug for (laughs) the movie, The Day After Tomorrow, that's where the energy would come from.

So I can buy all of that, I can even understand it, but what I can't grasp, what I just cannot grasp, is that a group of humans would covertly, understanding that this was coming, whether they thought they could do something about it or not, virtually build something to save their butts, go to Mars and let Earth and all its inhabitants perish.

And that being some great secret plan to save a few butts while all of ours roast. That part, I just can't digest.

(Commercial Break)

AB: Once again, Richard C. Hoagland, David Wilcock. Gentlemen, welcome back.

So I can buy a lot of this. As I said, the cyclical part seems real and supportable. Even the hyperdimensional energy, certainly the energy is real and probably supportable and may be tappable.

But then to extend out to where you've got this secret group of people who are realizing that this catastrophic event is coming to Earth and they're going to escape in their spaceships to Mars or something, leaving us to our awful--

RH: Well fortunately, the Model doesn't depend on the politics. Whether there are people that know or don't know is completely irrelevant to what we're figuring out.

AB: What I can believe, Richard, is that people have certain financial interests, like oil and the world economy such as it is--

RH: Yeah, remember, the lie is different at every level.

AB: That, that's--

RH: And for those people that's their universe, and they will hang on to the last drop. You know, four dollars a gallon? How about 40 dollars a gallon? Now, that's the box we're in. How do we get out? We've got two problems - a short-term problem and a long-term problem.

The short-term problem is keeping the civilization alive that we want to live in, and the long-term problem is keeping the planet alive that we want to live on. And the data that David and I have put together, and we're posting on the web... I think, David, we're going to have to have more than three parts to this--

AB: Well--

DW: Yeah, it sounds like it.

AB: You know, David, if what you said about the experiments inRussia is accurate, then the way to do it is to, I don't know, in some manner force this information to be more public to the degree that the larger institutions have no choice but to attempt to begin to duplicate it and break this out!

DW: The good part is that there are a lot of honest guys in the government. I was there at the May 10th Disclosure Project event in 2001, which kind of got blown away by 911, but nonetheless I was in that room with the Closed Executive Summary Briefing for members of Congress.

I watched these guys giving standing ovations when hearing from Sgt. Clifford Stone some of the most wildly esoteric UFO data you could imagine. So there's a lot of people out there who are in positions of power where they can make a difference, and they honestly don't know about this stuff, because it's not part of the regular, legitimate government.

RH: This is why I am planning, in the briefing that I am going to do on the Hill, to bring some of these technologies and if necessary some of the scientists to Washington to stand there with me. And Gene was going to be one of my prime witnesses. Well, there are a lot of others. Gene was a conduit, Gene was a nexus point, but Gene fortunately was not one-of-a-kind.

AB: Well, Gene is obviously no longer with us. That's the horrible news of the night, folks. So you, there's a device--

RH: Knowing his integrity, I mean, I will send to you, because you obviously have been looking at this and wanting a real set of stuff to appear for a long time...

AB: Oh yes.

RH: I will send you what he sent to me, which is his first-person technical and philosophical testimony of what he observed, the experiments, how it works, the technology, demonstrated in front of him.

AB: Do you have enough information, Richard, to be led back to this, to get this device in question?

RH: I know who the people are! I've talked with them!

AB: OK. Can you make your way to this device?

RH: Well, I can probably... I mean, I can call them. But maybe I shouldn't call them. Maybe I should physically go there, because the last person I called, very nasty things happened to. So I may have to be a little smarter about it this time.

But yes, I know who they are and I know what they have done and I know the foundations it will rock if I can demonstrate to these people in Washington, these honest people, which I totally agree with David, that regardless of whether there is a cabal or not, 99.99% of the system, Art, is completely ignorant of anything.

AB: All right, David, you wanted to say something.

DW: Yeah. I've seen the film of the device that everybody is so hot for. When Dr. Greer is talking about SEAS Power, S-E-A-S, Space Energy Access Systems...

RH: Uh huh.

AB: Oh yes! He's been hot on it for a while now.

DW: It's probably the same one that Dr. Eugene Mallove was talking about.

RH: No, it's not. This one works.

DW: Well, that's the thing. I just wanted to say that I saw a film of a guy--

RH: And this is not just a device, it is a physics, of a multiple series of devices, including, Art, one that produces anti-gravitational effects.

DW: Right.

AB: Are you two talking about the same device?

RH: No. No, we're not.

DW: Just let me get this out. The one that I saw was a half a sphere [made of metal and mounted on a 1-foot-wide wooden board], and it had an outlet - a regular, ordinary, 120 volt AC outlet [mounted on the board as well].

And this guy was able to start his car with it, and he was able to power a lamp and do anything that you'd normally do with a regular outlet. Now the thing is--

RH: It's not the same. It's not the same.

DW: Okay. There are no moving parts inside. [The device works simply by constructing a nested series of geometric forms (Platonic Solids), in metal, that are in precise harmonic relationships to each other. This was based on the pioneering 19th century research of John Keely.

The current is drawn between the outer rim of the half-sphere and the exact center of the nested geometry. He was able to tune it to run at a standard household alternating current 120-volt level.

The only problem that he had was that when you first plugged in the lamp, it would get brighter than normal, so there is an initial surge of extra current at the beginning. However, if you were charging up batteries with it and using them, this would obviously not be a problem.]

[The whole thing was no larger than a telephone book with an upside-down salad bowl on top of it. One or two such devices, passively and continuously charging a leftover telephone switch station battery (roughly 1500-2500 dollars), would probably be enough to power someone's home for as long as the battery lasted.

Since it runs entirely on geometry, this particular design gives heavy support to the reality of what we are discussing in the Hyperdimensional Model, as the geometry we see in the planets is the same geometry that powers this device.

Once the exact ratios between the geometries are known it would be dirt simple and dirt cheap to mass-produce these devices; but obviously the inventor fears for his life and knows the stakes.]

RH: The one I'm thinking of is a motor, Art, and get this - the motor is not connected to anything. It just sits in empty space and it spins, and when you touch it, as a human being, it spins faster.

DW: Yep.

RH: Because the physics of life -- remember the old Victorian idea of the vital force, the life force?

AB: Yes...

RH: That's why biology on this planet appeared at a certain time, half a billion years ago, after certain things happened on the Earth that did not happen in the three and a half billion years before. It is because biology and consciousness are part of this Physics.

Which brings me to something very important. You have conducted yourself, my friend, seven, count the number -- tetrahedral "seven -- fundamental consciousness experiments.

AB: Yes.

DW: The Great Experiment.

RH: And one of those saved my life.

DW: Yep.

RH: As we recounted the other night with George-- when Robin was on as a guest -- without that intrusion into my situation, I did not know at the time, and nobody has known, so we're going to tell your audience tonight, the doctors had, in essence, written me off!

They basically told her "that I was toast. They didn't tell me, but they told her. SO she moved heaven and earth -- with all the supplements and all the other things -- and did her part of this miracle.

But the other part, Art -- that I really cannot discount, because I could feel it -- was an actual, palpable change in how I felt. And believe me, when you're dying, you're very sensitive to how you feel.

DW: (Laughs)

AB: Yeah. The other subjects of these Experiments said these exact same words.

RH: Okay. When you focus the consciousness of -- I don't know how many millions of people who are listening to us tonight, unbelieving of many of the things we've been saying -- when you focused all those people on me, to get well, it changed.

Something changed. In fact, it changed so dramatically that some of my enemies put things on websites, remember that (suggesting that I had hoaxed the whole thing)!!?

AB: If, Richard (laughing:) yes.

RH: Remember that?

AB: Richard, I know...

RH: Now, here's where it gets important. Now, let me finish. Please let me finish.

AB: I know it works ...  I'm going to let you finish. I know it works.

RH: Okay. So if it works, and we're dealing with a "ruffled physics, an out of tune [Physics], a dissonance -- think of those fingernails on the blackboard - everybody, that awful sound you used to hear in school, that would make your teeth crawl, or you want to jump up out of your seat?

AB: Yeah.

RH: Think of tha, and magnify it by a hundred billion times ... and that's what the world "feels , and it tips over.

But the antidote is maybe not just technology, maybe not gadgets, maybe not machines, maybe not what Gene was looking at, but what Art Bell has been doing, which is to focus people's energies, their concentration, on smoothing out the rough edges and moving us through this perilous time in a coherent, musical coherent fashion.

A harmonious transition as opposed to a discordant transition. It could be as simple, Art, as getting this audience to focus on a future they really want to happen -- not the one they are afraid will happen.

DW: I'm real glad to hear Richard Hoagland say that. I am in complete agreement.

RH: Because there is a unity between the Physics and consciousness, and life! That's what the bottom line of this research has proven now, to my satisfaction.

DW: Well, I'm glad you're satisfied, because I have been saying that for a long time, I wanted to check out one more pyramid thing, because it totally ties in with what you just said.

This one came from the Russian National Academy of Science. They just took ordinary salt and pepper and stuck it inside the pyramid. They then removed it and fed it surreptitiously to about five thousand people in certain selected jails inRussia.

AB: Mm hm.

DW: Amazingly, within a few months there was a dramatic improvement in the behavior of the guys in the jails. Most of the criminal behavior almost completely disappeared, alcoholism [began to disappear,] whereas in the control jails there was no sign of any behavioral change.

Nothing in the jails under this study had changed, except that the salt and pepper from the pyramids was being secretly added to their food.

So if the energy of the pyramid harnesses and focalizes this energy of consciousness, if the pyramid structure has sort of a funnel-like effect for this fluidlike energy, and can concentrate it,

AB: Yes.

DW: And if consciousness can move the energy the same way, then what if each person is sort of like a little portable Stargate, and the reason why we're having so much trouble has to do with people's inability to be honest with themselves, honest with each other.

Then, their own internal shadow side gets projected out into the collective, so you get the shadow of each person being acted out in these occult politics. And when we get right with ourselves inside, the whole hologram changes.

So, I do have a portion of my work that focuses extensively on what we can do, just in terms of getting to know ourselves better, and basically just being nice to people. And the difference that that can really make.

Meditating for world peace can decrease the crime in a given city by 76%. That was the Maharishi Effect.

RH: Art, the numbers are there. The studies are there. Yes.

DW: It's true.

RH: Now, remember Bob's fast blast a few hours ago? Where he asked, "is the problem in ourselves and not the Universe?

AB: Yes.

RH: The answer is yes. We are part of the "broken physics -- of this system. The difference is that the planet cannot change itself, because it is not conscious. We are conscious. We can control this dynamic, and you and I have lived through these experiments. Remember our Princeton colleagues, and their little eggs. Right?

AB: Clearly.

RH: We know that if you harness the combined good, positive energies of enough people, miracles, what anybody else would define as a miracle, can happen. I am literally tonight talking to you, Art, because I am living proof of your faith and confidence in people to make a difference. In my life.

DW: Absolutely.

AB: Well, I've seen this power work, so I know it works. I'm pretty well beyond that. I have no greater understanding of this power, and the possible consequences of its use, than I had then. I don't understand it, and so I'm very hesitant to toy with what I don't understand.

Once I realized [spoken in low, galloping, somewhat goofy voice:] "Oh gosh, you know, this really is a power, this really does work, once that hit me like a brick, then it slowed me down. I began to tell myself that I don't understand what I'm doing.

DW: Yeah.

AB: I don't know what I'm doing. And there is a law of unintended consequences. There is also a time, I suppose, when things are so serious that you don't have much to lose.

RH: You got it. When the cliff is behind you, and "the Thing is in front of you, and you've got to make the decision--

AB: Yes. Yes. Yes.

RH: But you have now demonstrated, seven times, that this, in a proper moral atmosphere, can produce important miracles. And you've intervened in people's lives, my friend. You intervened in my life.

And I believe, firmly, that I am here tonight, in part, because of what you were able to get this collective consciousness, of all those people out there, to focus on, which is to keep me around, so I can be a thorn in your side for a few more years.

AB: (casually delighted:) Hah, ha, ha.

DW: Now, if we get the disclosure of this technology, it can't but only add to the way that people are going to open up and change. And that will change the Physics. So it's like you teach people the physics, and the Physics, changes.

RH: See, this is one reason I think why certain of these discoveries are suppressed. Not so much because of the technical or technological aspects of what they will make possible. But because of the incredible liberating effects on consciousness.

DW: Correct.

RH: We are our own worst enemies. We have trapped ourselves within this prison. And all we see played out on CNN are the endless tape loops of horror, and destruction, and degradation, and perdition, and every possible vile thing you can imagine, ramped up to a crescendo where people either turn off or tune out, or go crazy.

DW: If it bleeds, it leads.

AB: (Disappointed-sounding:) I know.

RH: So the antidote is to provide people with Hope, with a capital H. And there's something that's going to happen in our arena this summer, and Linda Moulton Howe, God bless her, is the first person to give us real information and intelligence on this.

She interviewed one of the senior scientists on the Mars Express mission. And Whitley was talking to you the other night about this, remember?

AB: Oh, yes!

RH: She said that, and I went to her website, and I am going to link to a story that we are doing on this after David and I have finished this program tonight. She interviewed this guy who was the chief scientist on the spectrometer on the Mars Express spacecraft.

He came within a whisker, within a hair's breadth, of admitting that he has found "benzene, formaldehyde and other organic molecules produced only by life, because they disappear in the Mars atmosphere in hours, unless they are replaced. And he plans to announce his firm findings, either in July, across, by the way, David, the canonical July 20th date--

DW: Uh huh...

RH: The COSPAR meeting, the sacred Egyptian ritual date of July 20th--

DW: You got it.

RH: Or - [at] the September meeting, later in the fall, just before the [US] election. What he's going to announce is that these molecules have been found, they have been confirmed, and they prove conclusively -- because they can't be there otherwise -- that there is current life on Mars.

Art, when that happens, and this is what I was telling Gene, and we had such joy sharing our positive outcomes now that we have gone through the vineyards and labored for so long to see light at the end of this tunnel--

AB: Mm hm.

RH: I said, "Gene, when that happens... "You don't have to tell me, Dick, he said, "All kinds of other paradigms will come marching through that door, and things people thought were impossible, outrageous, nonsense, bunk, pseudo-science, will suddenly have to be taken seriously, and the media will become our friend, because they will be avidly following up on the stories of all the other discoveries that nobody thought were true, but turn out to be true.

And that, by the way, is the title of my talk on Capitol Hill. "Life on Mars, and Other Fantasies that are Real.

AB: Well, that should get their attention! Uh, David?

DW: This is part of the fulfillment of the prophecies. There are all these prophecies that talk about the kind of conditions that we are going through right now...

AB: There are!

DW: And they describe a massive change in the whole way in which society functions, and how people think about themselves.

AB: They do!

RH: See, I'm a great believer in free will. And I've gotten a lot of metaphysical stuff under my belt in the last twenty years of doing this and pursuing this. And I really believe, David, that if we were doomed, if we were condemned to do what the previous generations were condemned to, we wouldn't be given these choices

DW: Yeah! Why would there be a prophecy? What's the point?

RH: But the opposition is fighting so hard to keep us from figuring it out -because, if we figure it out, and we get enough people to join us, we can make a difference. And that was what Gene died believing.

DW: What I'm hoping is that by a strict political expediency, the number of people who know about this becomes too great, so that even if somebody does want to suppress it, they basically can't in order to save face. That's what needs to happen.

And the way we're going to do that is by getting the people who can get the message out to the people aware of how simple this is, aware that the whole, entire solar system is changing in very obvious ways. If this movie, The Day After Tomorrow, can help kick-start that whole thing and get people talking about this stuff, they can segue right into what we're doing right now.

All NASA scientists, all mainstream. Nothing fringe .... Straight-ahead science that says the solar system is changing, and that we need to learn about the Physics to figure out what we can do to get through this more smoothly.

AB: Well, I think that's the biggest thing you've said tonight - to document the changes going on all around us. That should have meaning. Richard, as always, thank you very much!

RH: Thank you, Art. I have one little surprise for you.

AB: Very quickly!

RH: FOX has invited Robin and me to be with you at the Premiere.

DW: All right.

AB: (Delighted:) Ha ha ha ha ha!

RH: We will see you in New York, my friend!

DW: Congratulations.

AB: All right. Congratulations, Richard. See you in New York.

RH: Good night, David.

DW: Good night, Richard. Good night, Art. Good night, everybody!

AB: Good night. Richard C. Hoagland, David Wilcock, and there you have it. Well, everybody, see you tomorrow night. And tomorrow night, another advocate of multiple dimensions, the incredible Dr. Michio Kaku. For me, and for all those who help bring this program to you, from the high desert, good night, all.

 

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