Experiencing the Creator

[nzwasp]

I was having a conversation with a Buddhist friend of mine, and part of what we
were talking about was experiencing the Creator. God/Creator is Love, as we both
agreed, but he said that - though God is present always - you cannot
*experience* God through actions that are not of Love: murder was the example we
talked over.

His point was that if we murder someone we do not experience the Creator because
the action was not out of love, and since God is love, it is impossible to
experiencing Him. The conversation occured at an interesting time, actually,
since for the past week or so I have been taking the LoO's advice of finding the
love in each moment to a new level for myself - finding the love in the actions
of a serial killer.

It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far is that those
actions could possibly be done out of some level of love for the self. My friend
stated, though, that that would more so be love of the ego-self, not the true
self which is beyond the ego. But I'm not sure.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a confusing matter for me
here

Eternal Love,
John

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com, cococube11@... wrote:
>
> I was having a conversation with a Buddhist friend of mine, and
part of what we were talking about was experiencing the Creator.
God/Creator is Love, as we both agreed, but he said that - though
God is present always - you cannot *experience* God through actions
that are not of Love: murder was the example we talked over.
>
> His point was that if we murder someone we do not experience the
Creator because the action was not out of love, and since God is
love, it is impossible to experiencing Him. The conversation occured
at an interesting time, actually, since for the past week or so I
have been taking the LoO's advice of finding the love in each moment
to a new level for myself - finding the love in the actions of a
serial killer.
>
> It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far is
that those actions could possibly be done out of some level of love
for the self. My friend stated, though, that that would more so be
love of the ego-self, not the true self which is beyond the ego. But
I'm not sure.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a confusing
matter for me here
>
> Eternal Love,
> John
>
(Joe)

I am basing my reply on what I have read in the Law of One. ALL is
One --- and our experiences are, for lack of a better word, called
distortions. Someone please correct me if I am wrong in this. So
even the murderer would be experiencing "for" God. Not only are
those who LOVE part of God --- but so are those that DO NOT love.

Peace,

Joe

JOHN:

I have been taking the LoO's advice of finding the love in each moment to
a new level for myself - finding the love in the actions of a serial killer.

It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far is that those
actions could possibly be done out of some level of love for the self. My
friend
stated, though, that that would more so be love of the ego-self, not the
true
self which is beyond the ego. But I'm not sure.

ZIA:

HI John I have not posted for quite some time on this forum, however I
am drawn to respond to your question here, offering another perspective.
What does LoO mean by 'finding the love in each moment?' Where must we
initially ALWAYS find that Love? Is it within SELF first? meaning YOU, the
one that is observing an other?

What this offers is the opportunity to remember LOVE that is SELF. Then the
opportunity to remember LOVE as OTHER, knowing that the Love I am is the
same Love as Other. That is for me finding the Love in each moment. It
starts always with myself. That also then ceases any potential judgment in
myself of an other.

I remember the 'creation' of this universe and its gift. A choice was given
and we have FREE WILL, the mandate of this universe, to be, LOVE or NOT
LOVE. In order to experience what is NOT LOVE, we chose to forget we are
LOVE, and in a sense through free will choice, we must CHOOSE LOVE once
again. What will cause us to remember LOVE?

Is there really any ONE that is not LOVE? The serial killer presents
perhaps the greatest challenge of demonstrating NOT LOVE to itself. What is
cause in the mind of a serial killer to choose such an action? Obviously
the choice is to demonstrate NOT LOVE. Many might look for the 'reason' to
be that the serial killer never received LOVE in their childhood or some
such thing, yet, we all know that we can only draw to us, equal TO US. Thus
the serial killer has simply made the choice to BE NOT LOVE, the mandate of
this universe, in order to discover, and experience LOVE and make the FREE
WILL CHOICE to BE LOVE, and nothing else. Thus the serial killer simply is
the extreme of NOT LOVE striving to awaken to LOVE. The serial killer
offers itself the opportunity to see the intensity of its chosen BELIEF
through actions or experiences demonstrating NOT LOVE.

We are seeing 'polarized extremes' of NOT LOVE. We may also be experiencing
LOVE in ever expanding wonderment. Perhaps in the depths of extreme denial
of LOVE, or deeply asleep such as in a coma, it takes an extreme
action/experience to awaken.

In my remembering LOVE, for my SELF and OTHER, that is the power to awaken
OTHER. The mind that is LOVE simply holds OTHER in the same state of LOVE.
Who can see LOVE in the 'actions' of a serial killer? There is NOT LOVE in
such actions. So often we confuse behaviors and actions as the judgment of
LOVE/NOT LOVE. The ONE that CHOSE NOT LOVE is STILL LOVE, just not
demonstrating a LOVING ACTION. LOVE is a 'state of mind' that is so
powerful, it not only can move mountains, rather it can simply re-awaken an
OTHER TO LOVE that it has always been.

It IS our experiences that we have chosen, that JOLT us into another choice;
that is the purpose of such a catalyst, to re-awaken and remember LOVE. Was
such an intense and shocking catalyst chosen from a deep LOVE of self and
all LIFE, in order to re-awaken that knowingness????

I also recall within the RA materials if I remember correctly that such a
catalyst has ongoing effects presented as catalyst within family, culture,
society, and in many ways an ever widening circle, that we all can gain from
such a catalyst, by remembering to choose LOVE once again, for self and
other.

Another question might be: What would cause one to see death as a solution
to the experiences of life?

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com, jOHN wrote:
> His point was that if we murder someone we do not experience the
Creator because the action was not out of love, and since God is
love, it is impossible to experiencing Him. The conversation occured
at an interesting time, actually, since for the past week or so I
have been taking the LoO's advice of finding the love in each moment
to a new level for myself - finding the love in the actions of a
serial killer.
> It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far is
that those actions could possibly be done out of some level of love
for the self. My friend stated, though, that that would more so be
love of the ego-self, not the true self which is beyond the ego. But
I'm not sure.
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a confusing
matter for me here

Pi: To be "finding THE LOVE in the ACTIONS of a serial killer" why
is it necessary to determine if the serial killer is experiencing
love? To start with, love is by definition beyond definition in
language & intellect. A second point is, it seems THE LOVE that we
want to find is THE LOVE WE HAVE for the ACTIONS of a serial killer
in the moment, not the love that exists in the ACTIONS of a serial
killer. To find THE LOVE, we need to look within self; we need to
consider the self as both killer and victim.

If i / you / we consider the self as killer and as victim, we will
find pervasive fear everywhere. Can we face that fear? have love for
it? feel express show vibrate with love for the actions it generated?
If so, we will be living in the moment with love.

Peace & Love, pi

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com, cococube11@... wrote:
>
> I was having a conversation with a Buddhist friend of mine, and
part of what we were talking about was experiencing the Creator.
God/Creator is Love, as we both agreed, but he said that - though
God is present always - you cannot *experience* God through actions
that are not of Love: murder was the example we talked over.
>
> His point was that if we murder someone we do not experience the
Creator because the action was not out of love, and since God is
love, it is impossible to experiencing Him. The conversation occured
at an interesting time, actually, since for the past week or so I
have been taking the LoO's advice of finding the love in each moment
to a new level for myself - finding the love in the actions of a
serial killer.
>
> It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far is
that those actions could possibly be done out of some level of love
for the self. My friend stated, though, that that would more so be
love of the ego-self, not the true self which is beyond the ego. But
I'm not sure.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a confusing
matter for me here
>
> Eternal Love,
> John
>

John,
Let me preface my reply by stating that this is my first post so I
hope everyone will keep that in mind. Also I send Love and Light to
all and I am extremely happy that there is a such a Yahoo group
where we can discuss the Law of One and the path to 4th density. I
am grateful that I found David's site, it has been part of my
awakening process which only started last December. I have been a
memeber for about a month and I have read every message since then
and I am humbled to be in the presence of many great people who
devote theirselves to discovering the path to the Creator through
service to others.

From what I understand, for most of us, it is hard to imagine how
the taking of another's life is in any way an experience of Love. I
think both you and your Buddhist friend are quite right, however, in
your own way. As I understand RA's teachings, 3rd density is about
the Creator experiencing itself in as many ways as possible. Our
Logos allows for free will, and you can only move on to 4th density
by making a choice. Most of us (or hopefully all of us on this
board at least) are polarized to a STO path, so taking a life is not
Love for others (far from it) and thus not Love for self. But what
does it mean for someone oriented towards service to self? Taking
someone's life could mean a gain in power for them, a gain in
polarity towards STS, for example in the case where a politician
would take the life of a rival or a higher up to gain more power in
that political arena. I would distinguish, however, between a
serial killer and the aforementioned case, because a serial killer
may not be polarized in either direction, and may be, as someone
pointed out, in need of Love. I think that is an important
distinction because we are dealing with a case of intent and choice,
where on one hand we may have someone intentionally wanting to take
life and on the other we may have one not polarized at all, with
possibly a disease that makes them that way. It is even possible
the serial killer be manipulated by a hgiher density STS entity to
take life in order for that higher density entity to gain power and
polarize more towards STS. So I think your Buddhist friend is part
right because although these experiences may present an opportunity
for Love of self, in a STS polarity this is not the true LOVE of the
Creator because these are mere 3rd density experiences and on the
path back to the Source, in the higher densities, even those on the
STS path have to realize the true LOVE of the Creator in order to
ascend beyond 6th density. This is what I think your friend is
speaking of when he says it is the love of the ego self not the love
of the True Self or the Higher Self if you will that guides us from
higher densities. And since All are One, it can't truly be that
anti-love equals love.

You have a point though that each moment, even a murderous moment is
an expression of Love of the Creator in many ways. A murder can
present an opportunity for the deepest Love polarizing towards both
STO and STS. Take an example of a fire in a building. Say the fire
is started by an arsonist, who will gain loads of money if the
building burns down. Now imagine a firefighter running inside the
uilding that is near collapsing because of the skill with which the
fire was set. They are going inside to rescue a child. With effort
the firefighter rescues the child then manages to escape the
building saving the child's life only to succumb to smoke inhalation
and die on the spot. Or let's take your serial killer. A person
around the place where the serial killer lives notices suspicious
behavior being exhibited by another. They decide to take action and
in the process is murdered by the serial killer. Their actions (you
can work out the details yourselves, I'm not screenwriter ) lead
the police to the serial killer in time to save the latest potential
victim. That is a beautiful moment, in that that person has
experienced the Love of the Creator and polarized more towards STO
by saving a life n place of their own.

Well those are my thoughts, sorry for such a long winded first post.

Love and Light to All Forever,
Darak

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com, cococube11@... wrote:
>
> God/Creator is Love, as we both agreed, but he said that - though
God is present always - you cannot *experience* God through actions
that are not of Love: murder was the example we talked over.
>
> His point was that if we murder someone we do not experience the
Creator because the action was not out of love, and since God is
love, it is impossible to experiencing Him. Does anyone have any thoughts on
this? It's a bit of a confusing matter for me here
> Eternal Love,
> John
>

John,
Let me preface my reply by stating that this is my first post so I
hope everyone will keep that in mind. Also I send Love and Light to
all and I am extremely happy that there is a such a Yahoo group
where we can discuss the Law of One and the path to 4th density. I
am grateful that I found David's site, it has been part of my
awakening process which only started last December. I have been a
memeber for about a month and I have read every message since then
and I am humbled to be in the presence of many great people who
devote theirselves to discovering the path to the Creator through
service to others.

From what I understand, for most of us, it is hard to imagine how
the taking of another's life is in any way an experience of Love. I
think both you and your Buddhist friend are quite right, however, in
your own way. As I understand RA's teachings, 3rd density is about
the Creator experiencing itself in as many ways as possible. Our
Logos allows for free will, and you can only move on to 4th density
by making a choice. Most of us (or hopefully all of us on this
board at least) are polarized to a STO path, so taking a life is not
Love for others (far from it) and thus not Love for self. But what
does it mean for someone oriented towards service to self? Taking
someone's life could mean a gain in power for them, a gain in
polarity towards STS, for example in the case where a politician
would take the life of a rival or a higher up to gain more power in
that political arena. I would distinguish, however, between a
serial killer and the aforementioned case, because a serial killer
may not be polarized in either direction, and may be, as someone
pointed out, in need of Love. I think that is an important
distinction because we are dealing with a case of intent and choice,
where on one hand we may have someone intentionally wanting to take
life and on the other we may have one not polarized at all, with
possibly a disease that makes them that way. It is even possible
the serial killer be manipulated by a hgiher density STS entity to
take life in order for that higher density entity to gain power and
polarize more towards STS. So I think your Buddhist friend is part
right because although these experiences may present an opportunity
for Love of self, in a STS polarity this is not the true LOVE of the
Creator because these are mere 3rd density experiences and on the
path back to the Source, in the higher densities, even those on the
STS path have to realize the true LOVE of the Creator in order to
ascend beyond 6th density. This is what I think your friend is
speaking of when he says it is the love of the ego self not the love
of the True Self or the Higher Self if you will that guides us from
higher densities. And since All are One, it can't truly be that
anti-love equals love.

You have a point though that each moment, even a murderous moment is
an expression of Love of the Creator in many ways. A murder can
present an opportunity for the deepest Love polarizing towards both
STO and STS. Take an example of a fire in a building. Say the fire
is started by an arsonist, who will gain loads of money if the
building burns down. Now imagine a firefighter running inside the
uilding that is near collapsing because of the skill with which the
fire was set. They are going inside to rescue a child. With effort
the firefighter rescues the child then manages to escape the
building saving the child's life only to succumb to smoke inhalation
and die on the spot. Or let's take your serial killer. A person
around the place where the serial killer lives notices suspicious
behavior being exhibited by another. They decide to take action and
in the process is murdered by the serial killer. Their actions (you
can work out the details yourselves, I'm not screenwriter ) lead
the police to the serial killer in time to save the latest potential
victim. That is a beautiful moment, in that that person has
experienced the Love of the Creator and polarized more towards STO
by saving a life n place of their own.

Well those are my thoughts, sorry for such a long winded first post.

Love and Light to All Forever,
Darak

Hi John,

I was struck by your letter, because recently a young aquaintence of
mine was convicted of murder. The last time I saw him was when he
came to visit us in the foothills of the Sierra with his family. We
went to Yosemite, and I have an image of him leaping across the
rapids, jumping like a gazelle from rock to rock. He helped the rest
of us by grabbing our hands as we stumbled across. So sweet. And yet
he was able to commit this crime. Normally I don't listen to the
news, or follow high profile murders on the web, but since I knew this
young man, I was transfixed by the story and even more, the responses
of the people involved and those just observing. Many observers
posting on the forums expressed hatred for this boy. I understand the
tendency, because they have no other data points than that of his
public image as a "murderer." On the other hand, the mother of the
murder "victim," even though she was feeling a profound grief as a
result of her loss, expressed compassion for the family of the
murderer, stating that, with the verdict of life in prison without
parole, the pain of losing their son was just beginning.

In session 34 of the Law of One, Ra equates karma with inertia of
action. Those actions will continue until they are "braked" by a
"controlling or higher principle?.This stoppage of the inertia of
action may be called forgiveness. These two concepts are inseparable."

In the same session, Ra states that karma developed in an incarnation
may be "ameliorated":
"?both self and any involved other-self may, at any time through the
process of understanding, acceptance, and forgiveness, ameliorate
these patterns. This is true at any point in an incarnative pattern.
Thus one who has set in motion an action may forgive itself and never
again make that error. This also brakes or stops what you call karma."

So (if my understanding is correct) through self-forgiveness, we can
stop the karma produced by an action we have made in this lifetime.

Further in the same session:
"[The catalyst of pain] creates a potential for learning. The lessons
to be learned vary. Almost always these lessons include patience,
tolerance, and the ability for the light touch."

Ra goes on to say that when a loved one dies, often the catalyst of
emotional pain results in "a bitterness, an impatience, a souring."

(An aside: The various responses to catalyst bring to mind the sweet
Buddhist, Thich Nhat Hanh, who says that we have the seeds of anger
and those of compassion within us, and it is up to us which we choose
to water.)

Perhaps all this might be distilled into the idea that a person who
commits murder is aiding us in stopping our karma by giving us and
himself an opportunity to forgive.

Love,
Ruth

P.S.: You might want to google Aba Gayle. She is wonderful.



--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com, cococube11@... wrote:

> ...It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far is
that those actions could possibly be done out of some level of love
for the self. My friend stated, though, that that would more so be
love of the ego-self, not the true self which is beyond the ego. But
I'm not sure.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a confusing
matter for me here
>
> Eternal Love,
> John

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com, "j_stubler" <j_stubler@...> wrote:
>
> --- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com, cococube11@ wrote:
> >
> > It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far
is
> that those actions could possibly be done out of some level of
love
> for the self. My friend stated, though, that that would more so be
> love of the ego-self, not the true self which is beyond the ego.
But
> I'm not sure.
> >
> > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a confusing
> matter for me here
> >
> > Eternal Love,
> > John
> >
> (Joe)
>
> I am basing my reply on what I have read in the Law of One. ALL
is
> One --- and our experiences are, for lack of a better word, called
> distortions. Someone please correct me if I am wrong in this. So
> even the murderer would be experiencing "for" God. Not only are
> those who LOVE part of God --- but so are those that DO NOT love.
>
> Peace,
>
> Joe

I would have to agree with Joe here. Each experience is for the
Creator, even the most obscene and tragic. Love exists in every
moment, whether or not you are able to find it. Even the serial
killer "is" and is surrounded by love, it exists everywhere. The
actions of the serial killer are being interpreted through
distortions. From our perspective these killings may mean one thing,
but considering they exist, they are of love. I think where you are
going wrong in your seeking is that you are searching for something
thats so incredibly inherent to the situation, its easily missed.
Dont search for the concept of love, even if its the penultimate
universal super-duper concept of love, its going to fall short of
what love truly is. I think that what Ra meant when he said find the
love in each moment was to yield to the love of each moment. In
actuality there is nothing to look for, its already there, always,
we just fail to notice. So basically, dont look for the love in the
action of killing, it cant be found through reason or the mind. I
think we must first believe and know that the love is there, always
there/here/everywhere, and then we can slowly become more and more
aware of it in each moment. Infinite peace and blessings to you on
your journey!

Wm. Floyd
>

[nzwasp]

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "* Zia" <zia_19@...>
>Thus the serial killer has simply made the choice to BE NOT LOVE, the mandate
of this universe, in order to >discover, and experience LOVE and make the FREE
WILL CHOICE to BE LOVE, and nothing else. Thus the >serial killer simply is the
extreme of NOT LOVE striving to awaken to LOVE. The serial killer offers itself
the >opportunity to see the intensity of its chosen BELIEF through actions or
experiences demonstrating NOT LOVE.

John: My friend defined that a 'wrong' action was one that did not lead to the
Creator - basically an action not done in/through Love. Would it be correct,
though, to say that no action is fundamentally wrong because of 1) free will,
and 2) those actions STILL lead you back towards the Infinite - towards Love?
But what if someone commiting an action of non-love never takes the catalyst
that can lead him to see this Love? In order for the action to lead you back to
Love you have to take that catalyst. If one never takes the catalyst, would
these actions still lead him to Love?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Divine love (not equated here with simply the emotion of love) is
accepting of both the beautiful AND the ugly....even a murderer.

Jan

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com, "knowtheobscure" <knowtheobscure@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com, "j_stubler" <j_stubler@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com, cococube11@ wrote:
> > >
> > > It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far
> is
> > that those actions could possibly be done out of some level of
> love
> > for the self. My friend stated, though, that that would more so
be
> > love of the ego-self, not the true self which is beyond the ego.
> But
> > I'm not sure.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a
confusing
> > matter for me here
> > >
> > > Eternal Love,
> > > John