The Bible and Jesus ...a thought

[Petrus]

> so for those who want to keep faith with christ i think keeping to his
core teachings as he made to people in simple parables and you will follow
christ even if
> you have never heard of the bible, i.e. if you do unto others as you would
have them do unto you, live a christian life and you follow christ. i
believe jesus
> wanted most of all to keep it simple.

"'this is the covenant i will make with the house of israel after that
time,' declares the lord. 'i will put my law in their minds and write it on
their hearts. i will be their god, and they will be my people. no longer
will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'know the
lord,' because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,' declares the lord. 'for i will
forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.'"
(jeremiah 31:33-34)

"for not the hearers of the law are just before god, but the doers of the
law shall be justified. for when the gentiles, which have not the law, do
by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a
law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their
hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean
while accusing or else excusing one another."
(romans 2:13-15, kjv)

"but the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,
goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. against such things
there is no law."
(galatians 5:22-23)

[Silverwings]

you wrote:
>so for those who want to keep faith with christ i think keeping to his
>core teachings as he made to people in simple parables and you will follow
>christ even if you have never heard of the bible, i.e. if you do unto
>others as you would have them do unto you, live a christian life and you
>follow christ.

hans de boer, a german christian who to this day spends every day of his
life campaigning (lecturing schoolchildren etc.) for true christianity,
anti-hitler/fascism etc. (he is now c. 80 years old) wrote a wonderful book
in about 1957 covering his trip around the globe where he visited south
africa, india (where he met the gandhi family) and many other countries to
see what christians were up to in these various hot spots where lots of
injustice reigned... among other experiences, he was tortured (first under
hitler, then in korea i think) and his son was killed... now among many
things that moved me to tears or to laughter in his book, hans relates the
following (paraphrased):

"nowhere have i found so many true followers of christ as in india... and
these are men that have never ever even heard of jesus christ - but the way
they choose to live their lives perfectly exemplifies what a true christian
is asked to do and to act like (but so few 'christians' in the west do)"...

to my mind, the only thing that matters is to act like a christian is asked
to act (and a true buddhist, muslim, hindu etc., for that matter)... one of
the most christian-acting people well-known today imo is the dalai lama...
(there is a bit of english-language info on hans de boer on the net.)

ulla
www.paradisenow.net


[non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Michael Roods]

a good take on the bible, free will, oneness and jesus is gary r renard's
book ......the disappearance of the universe.


mike
as i do to others, i do to myself
forgiveness is for giving and is forgiving

[David Gray]

i a lot of people have been told to take the bible verbatim / infallible that
the words are protected by god and must be taken literally, my comment on this
the passage pointed out (i think it is in matthew ) where it says something to
the effect ' that any man who changes or adds or deletes from the words written
be cursed.

this is the primary defense of the bible as being gods word perfect. however
though it says 'the man would be cursed' it does not say that it cannot happen.

another point is that jesus from what we see in the bible never wrote anything
down. i have to believe he did not want to be taken literally.

also the conversion / translation from verbal tradition to the first written
words in aramaic happened at least a century after the events. it is impossible
to accurately translate some words from one language to another as there is
often no exact equivalent in english.

so for those who want to keep faith with christ i think keeping to his core
teachings as he made to people in simple parables and you will follow christ
even if you have never heard of the bible, i.e. if you do unto others as you
would have them do unto you, live a christian life and you follow christ. i
believe jesus wanted most of all to keep it simple.

ra's teachings of service to others is no different to my mind, there is no
contradiction. if you try to take the bible literally as written then confusion
will be an inevitable result, hence so many people take a charismatic television
evangelist's word as 'gospel' then they don't have to think for them selves.

if man could not change the bible , twist and tweak it a bit to suit the times
this would be a violation of free will, take away free will and the entire
edifice collapses.

just a thought;

peace ... david


[non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[marijnclarie]

i posted a document that makes some comparison between eastern and
western cultures, regarding the moral domain and the feeling
of "order" etc

see files

<a href="http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/eao5q1keott2-egmc2jxokrlxfgmtsfyi6zdht6tuy4qtq1km8qu5snip5yzr3w mnzle49ocnlhwsvn_pou9xajuluzo--4bfmi/balu%20-%2021%20-%20moraldomains.doc">http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/eao5q1k...6tuy4qtq1km8q\
u5snip5yzr3wmnzle49ocnlhwsvn_pou9xajuluzo--4bfmi/balu%20-%2021%20-%20moraldomain\
s.doc</a>

friendly greetings
marijn


> hans de boer, a german christian who to this day spends every day
of his
> life campaigning (lecturing schoolchildren etc.) for true
christianity,
> anti-hitler/fascism etc. (he is now c. 80 years old) wrote a
wonderful book
> in about 1957 covering his trip around the globe > to my mind, the only thing
that matters is to act like a christian
is asked
> to act (and a true buddhist, muslim, hindu etc., for that
matter)... > ulla
>

[amilius2001]

--- in asc2k@yahoogroups.com, "david gray" <davidgry@m...>
wrote:
> i a lot of people have been told to take the bible verbatim /
infallible that the words are protected by god and must be taken
literally, my comment on this the passage pointed out (i think it is
in matthew ) where it says something to the effect ' that any man
who changes or adds or deletes from the words written be
cursed.
>
> this is the primary defense of the bible as being gods word
perfect. however though it says 'the man would be cursed' it
does not say that it cannot happen.

> also the conversion / translation from verbal tradition to the first
written words in aramaic happened at least a century after the
events. it is impossible to accurately translate some words from
one language to another as there is often no exact equivalent in
english.
>
> so for those who want to keep faith with christ i think keeping
to his core teachings as he made to people in simple parables
and you will follow christ even if you have never heard of the
bible, i.e. if you do unto others as you would have them do unto
you, live a christian life and you follow christ. i believe jesus
wanted most of all to keep it simple.
>
> ra's teachings of service to others is no different to my mind,
there is no contradiction. if you try to take the bible literally as
written then confusion will be an inevitable result, hence so
many people take a charismatic television evangelist's word as
'gospel' then they don't have to think for them selves.
>
> if man could not change the bible , twist and tweak it a bit to
suit the times this would be a violation of free will, take away
free will and the entire edifice collapses.

david, your post reminds me of the story mollie ivins tells about
the texas state senator arguing about bilingual education in the
legislature with the comment, "if english was good enough for
jesus christ, it's good enough for texas schools." many have
forgotten or ignore the challenges posed by the puzzles of
context, syntax, and translation. i hope this isn't too 'off topic' for
asc2k, but i've given some of these things some secular
humanist thought that may shed light on a different perspective
than is found in popular culture but resonates with ra and
cayce.
one of these observations follows from the contemporary use
of the word 'perfect'. perfect has only recently been attached to
notions of 'ideal'. [i think it has something to do with the
american notion of '... a more perfect union.' ] during the
enlightenment, concepts were appreciated in mathematical
terms: i.e., 'perfecting' an equation, solution, or proof meant
showing all the details, 'completely'. 'perfect' makes more
sense when regarded as 'complete'. this in turn suggests that
something, say, the bible, is 'perfect', as in complete, for the
purpose served in any given moment. with this understanding,
whether applied graciously or not, the bible is and has been
'complete' for creating the diverse experiences shaping both
circumstances and opportunities humanity faces today. the
bible has been 'perfect' for all the ways it has been both used
and abused to gift us with our present 'now' moments. might it
also be that 'appreciation', rather than 'worship', is all that was
ever intended about god, the bible, jesus, and the many facets
of life as well. even if one does not religiously limit one's
appreciation of the bible, one might still regard it as 'complete
for purposes to which it is turned', or 'perfect'.
as for the admonition by matthew, might his intent be to strongly
suggest that one be cautious with a written work so
conspicuously ripe for ungracious distortion? might this result
from failing to regard the bible's theme? your citing of the
golden rule aligns completely with this theme begun in
genesis that informs one about the nature of the one creator.
not many notice this theme. religions, for the most part, claim
power by obscuring it. the theme that might be appreciated in
the tale of the eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil is that, like 'sweet' and 'sour', good and evil are
not opposites. the opposite of 'good' is 'bad', words best
appreciated as assessments about one's choices for one's self
for future guidance. the opposite of 'evil' is 'gracious'. i observe
that grace is the awareness that all choice generates benefit for
purposes of appreciation. gracious is the demonstration of this
awareness. gracious choices generate benevolence.
ungracious is its denial. ungracious choices generate
instructive consequence reminding one that a more gracious
choice was missed in the taking. all choices might thus be
appreciated for their benefits. [ and it was good.] this is the
nature of graciously organized design. evil is, in fact, an
ungracious assessment of ungracious choices, inviting
compound consequences. adam's separation inspiring notion
was assigning blame, shifting responsiblity for his experience,
to eve, an ungracious choice that metaphorically set the roller
coaster of events in motion. appreciating these things, jesus
taught the golden rule, saw the unity of man within graciously
organized design, and cautioned against the use of evil and
judgment. the dire caution from matthew came as much from
observing how the talmud had been twisted by the pharisees,
sadducees, and sanhedrin as any sense of divine inspiration.
the bible is abused when the theme is ignored so that the text is
twisted to justify ungracious choices and their consequences.
the bible and all histories support these understandings. it
operates this way because we are all one. we chose for it to be
this way before engaging illusions of individuation, separation,
and forgetting-the-fullness-of-being. it's all in there. one might
just simply regard it from the context, " how might one have
designed the game of life so as to generate the diversity of
experience that would eventually re-mind one of the true nature
of one's being through the appreciated observation of the history
of its process?" david, it really is this simple, just as you have
always thought it might be. if one thinks about sto and sts as
gracious performances with this perspective of evolving
awareness, one sees how it all serves the purposes of the one
creator just as ra and so many others have suggested we will
soon remember. we are all one. namaste, amilius

[Lynn]

"perfect has only recently been attached to notions of 'ideal'. [i think it has
something to do with the american notion of '... a more perfect union.' ]
during the enlightenment, concepts were appreciated in mathematical terms: i.e.,
'perfecting' an equation, solution, or proof meant showing all the details,
'completely'. 'perfect' makes more sense when regarded as 'complete'. this in
turn suggests that something, say, the bible, is 'perfect', as in complete, for
the purpose served in any given moment."
***************************************
amilius, perfect post, point for introspection. thank you for another gracious
addition to the discussion, compliments david, chris, ra, cayce,
overmind\oversoul, all connecting us with source, pulling our pieces together
into one. teach\learn, universal\unique . . . perfect\imperfect,
mankind\divine?

we are one, now.


the examined life is worth living!

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[Petrus]

> david, your post reminds me of the story mollie ivins tells about
> the texas state senator arguing about bilingual education in the
> legislature with the comment, "if english was good enough for
> jesus christ, it's good enough for texas schools." many have

*violent fit of coughing* i knew politicians could be stupid at times, but
that really takes it to the next level! ;-)