Sleeping and Dreaming

[darktemplarssj]

i have a question about dreams. some people like david say that you
should learn to do lucid dreaming and writing down dreams and such
but other people, people like osho and other easterners say that you
should try to remain in a concious state as you enter sleep.

i personally have had a few brief experiences with sleep in an odd
state, a concious state of sleep almost. if anyone knows exactly
what this is called and where i could find info it would be
helpful. i've tried googling for "sleeping awake" or "wakefullness
while sleeping" but they don't turn up anything related. i've also
heard this state called the "bardo sleep state" but i don't think
this is right because the bardo thaoul(sp?) says this state is a
state "between lives". any info on this would be helpful.

but now my question. in this state there are no dreams as per osho
( i haven't been in it long enough to be personally sure though):
------
when this center is knowing,
***dreams become impossible.***
then you are asleep in a different sense,
and you will be awake in the morning
in a different sense.
a different quality comes by the encounter
-----
and if this is true then he says that we should seek it because it
ends the wanting and the dreaming and desire. now i've been
thinking about this for a while and to do this would block the
possibility of learning from dreams. but which is more beneficial?
i don't know. i'd be intersted in david's comments because he is
the one that knows most about dreams and suggests the idea of
resolving karma in dreams; but of course anyone who has useful
insight please comment.
good journey
-dave

[GenoNess1@...]

sounds like you are fully lucid dreaming. to the point where you arent even
dreaming. like you are jsut in a trance-like mind state that you dont know
what to do with. i think dreaming is fun. if there are no dreams in such a
state, then i would hazard to guess that it is just a long deep content
meditation. but that is what sleep is. personally i would rather develop
spiritually to the point where i could fall asleep, and be in a state of
awareness naturally because i have worked through enough subconscious issues,
rather than avoiding the issues for a novelty of 'sleeping awake'. if you
cease to learn from dreams, then either you are done learning or you have to
earn another way. so whatever works best for you is more beneficial. thats my
opinion! love, kyle!


[non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Daniel Moeck]

dave & group,

at 01:01 am 7/27/2004, you wrote:

>i have a question about dreams. some people like david say that you
>should learn to do lucid dreaming and writing down dreams and such
>but other people, people like osho and other easterners say that you
>should try to remain in a concious state as you enter sleep.
>
>i personally have had a few brief experiences with sleep in an odd
>state, a concious state of sleep almost. if anyone knows exactly
>what this is called and where i could find info it would be
>helpful. i've tried googling for "sleeping awake" or "wakefullness
>while sleeping" but they don't turn up anything related. i've also
>heard this state called the "bardo sleep state" but i don't think
>this is right because the bardo thaoul(sp?) says this state is a
>state "between lives". any info on this would be helpful.


i have also been very interested in conscious dreaming for a long time and
have tried a number of different techniques. the best one, imo, was
something called "e-therapy" that seems to have been developed in about the
'50's. this is not the same as the contemporary "e-therapy" that you will
find on the internet now. in the old e-therapy the dreamer relaxes on a
couch or bed while a second person sits beside them and observes. the
dreamer makes a clear request of their higher self that they be given
whatever healing or teaching that the higher self feels is most needed.
then they relax deeply and start to fall asleep in this state of humble
receptivity. the observer's job is to keep them from going all the way into
sleep by gently asking from time to time what they are experiencing. this
keeps the dreamer in that half sleep state where the conscious ego mind is
out of the way. the sessions usually seem to last 20 minutes to an hour.
the higher self of the dreamer is always allowed to direct every aspect of
the session.

when i did it my experiences were always very powerful and exhilerating. it
was usually hard to find any words at all for the blissful emotions and
beautiful fiery colors that would envelop me. teachings might come as a
subtle knowingness but they were always very kinesthetic. i have had very
deep hypnosis sessions before that were designed to explore
in-between-lives. this old e-therapy felt very similar to that.

hope that helps.

daniel moeck


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[non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[darktemplarssj]

--- in asc2k@yahoogroups.com, genoness1@a... wrote:
> sounds like you are fully lucid dreaming. to the point where you
arent even
> dreaming.

i don't know. haven't any of you guys on this forum had this
experience? it's not hard to attain... after 6 monthes of
meditation it started happening to me and after 2 weeks of
meditation it happened to my brother(for a full night he says).
the best way to describe it is to say that i felt concious of my
whole body, for a short time.

my expereience was no more than 2 or 3 seconds the first few times
it happened then it was around 5 or 6 seconds the next time it
happened. this was when i became slightly scared of the expereience
because it was so odd, i had a slight trepidation and it hasn't
happened again since then, about 2 monthes. it used to happen
weekly or biweekly back then. i think my higher self blocked off
the experience because of my fear.

it wasn't like during the day where the center of conciousness is
mostly in the head. i felt like my conciousness was a liquid poured
into my body and it filled my whole being. in fact i think a good
description would be that i felt like i was in a spirit body that
was slightly biger than my actual body and was radiating outwords.
i guess thats the best way to talk of it.

>like you are jsut in a trance-like mind state that you dont know
> what to do with. i think dreaming is fun. if there are no dreams
>in such a state, then i would hazard to guess that it is just a
>long deep content meditation.

i think it's just best to copy/paste from his website, the whole
dialogue is no more than 2 pages and it gives a better grasp on the
dilemma here than me trying to paraphrase it:
--------------------------------

taken from:
bhagwan shree rajneesh,
dynamics of meditation,
bombay, india, 1972
page 284

the moment when you are dropping into sleep
is the moment to encounter the unconsciousness.
if you can remain out of sleep, then the unconscious
will be real,
because that is the line. the very line from where you
drop into sleep is the line where you can encounter
the unconscious.

you have been sleeping everyday,
but you have not encountered sleep yet.
you have not seen it: what it is, how it comes, how to
drop into it.
you have not known anything about it.
you have been dropping daily, coming out of it,
but you have not felt the moment
when sleep comes to the mind and what happens.

so try this, and with three months effort,
suddenly one day you will enter sleep knowingly:
drop on your bed, close your eyes, and then remember,
remember that sleep is coming and
"i am to remain awake when the sleep comes".
it is very arduous, but it helps.
one day it will not happen,
another day it will not happen.
persist every day,
constantly remembering that sleep is coming,
and "i am not to allow it without knowing.
i must be aware when sleep enters.
i must go on feeling how sleep takes over,
what it is."

one day sleep is there, and you are still awake.
that very moment
you become aware of your unconsciousness.
**and once you become aware of your unconsciousness
you will never be asleep again during the day.**
sleep will be there, but you will be awake
simultaneously.
a center in you will go on knowing;
all around will be sleep,
and the center will go on knowing.

when this center is knowing,
dreams become impossible.
then you are asleep in a different sense,
and you will be awake in the morning
in a different sense.
a different quality comes by the encounter.
_______________________________

i guess my experiences were just shadows of what he talks about, not
the full experience. what i'm hesitant about is that it sounds like
a permanent change, and i want to be sure before i pursue it.

> but that is what sleep is. personally i would rather develop
>spiritually to the point where i could fall asleep, and be in a
>state of awareness naturally because i have worked through enough
>subconscious issues, rather than avoiding the issues for a novelty
>of 'sleeping awake'. if you
> cease to learn from dreams, then either you are done learning or
>you have to earn another way. so whatever works best for you is
>more beneficial. thats my opinion! love, kyle!

i don't know which would be more benificial. it sounds like this
altered state would be helpful, and not just a novelty if you read
his statement above.still wondering though..
>
>
> [non-text portions of this message have been removed]
good journey
-dave

[Brent Goodwin]

if you are not familiar with an out-of-body experience, then it will
startle or scare you. it sounds like you are in the early stages of
prompting an obe, which is trainable. one of the conditioning techniques
for obe is dream recall and lucid dreaming. david, monroe, or buhlman
are the experts in this area.

love/light and light/love
brent

[darktemplarssj]

--- in asc2k@yahoogroups.com, brent goodwin <drgoodeye@y...> wrote:
> if you are not familiar with an out-of-body experience, then it
will
> startle or scare you. it sounds like you are in the early stages
of
> prompting an obe, which is trainable. one of the conditioning
techniques
> for obe is dream recall and lucid dreaming. david, monroe, or
buhlman
> are the experts in this area.
>
> love/light and light/love
> brent

i just wanted to post in case anyone is intersted, and to wrap up
the thread. i did some deep digging last night on google. it took
like 10 mins of clicking and serching to turn up anything, as
opposed to just one search as it usually is but i finally found
something.

the maharishi say that when someone has meditated for a long time
they experience "pure conciousness" and this begins to pervade their
life, as a backdrop to thought, a purified state.

they also say that once a person has been meditating even longer it
will begin to pervade the person's sleep. the maharishi and some
other random websites i found categorize lucid dreaming into
categories. the first is an actively created lucid dream, the
next , more advanced is where you sit back and watch and enjoy the
dream, knowing you are dreaming but just enjoying it emotionally.

then they say the deepest altered sleep state is one where you are
witnessing the sleeping and itself, it is s dreamless state
seperated from action, esencially beingness itself. i suppose this
is what osho was talking about.

other websites too say similar things. one scientific abstract i
found said that there are three states. it clasified the second one
as "lucid luminosity", i remembered this because it said that at
this depth the sleeper feels like he is giving off a liquidlike
colored aura. this was almost uncanilly like what i had felt.

anyways, thats about the summation of things.
good journey
-dave