Is desire the impetus?

[Chamil1950@...]

in a message dated wed, 13 mar 2002 12:29:36 pm eastern standard time, jeremy
weiland <greenlantern113@...> writes:

.. is
> *desire* the impetus for polarization?
, especially when you know which way you
> "desire" to polarize... it's a bit of a conundrum!
>
> acceptance is really hard...

> jeremy
> a possible explanation here is that desire is simply an emotion without
polarity until you apply your thought to it. the two together will create a
feeling which will be polarized because of the two interacting. if the thought
is selfish, then the feeling will produce a negative desire (greed, lust,
sloth-how come i can always think of plenty of rotten ones. so, i guess, keep
your thoughts pure and all else falls into place? chris
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[Jeremy Weiland]

> "the orientation [or choice of either the service to
> self or service to
> others polarity] develops due to [an] analysis of
> desire. these desires
> become more and more distorted towards conscious
> application of love/light
> [energy] as the entity furnishes itself with
> distilled experience."

this is a really interesting quote, david, one that i
hadn't looked at before in quite this light. i
remember that there was a question from don about what
made certain entities tend to choose one polarity and
other entities the other, and ra basically said it was
riddled in mystery. but this is interesting... is
*desire* the impetus for polarization?

i'm not saying, nor do i think ra is saying, that our
desires are what control us, or should, but that they
provide sort of the intitial spark, the prime
movement, for an exploration of the self through
polarization. obviously, it is acting on those
desires, gathering experience from those actions,
accepting responsibility for the consequences of those
actions, and reconciling those consequences with the
intitial desires, that lead to the formation of new
desires... as ra says, as we become more conscious of
the process, we can use desire rather than be used by
it (i think...?).

i guess the trick is, how do you desire what you want
to desire? :-) and that's a question i've been
trying to answer for a long time. you don't want to
gloss over your areas where you are dis-integrated by
simply "overcoming" the issue, yet you want to make
progress, especially when you know which way you
"desire" to polarize... it's a bit of a conundrum!

acceptance is really hard...

jeremy

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[Tiffani Boswell]

> i guess the trick is, how do you desire what you want
> to desire? :-) and that's a question i've been
> trying to answer for a long time.

this makes me think of the verse...delight yourself in the lord and he will
give you the desires of your heart...the old addage of interpretation on
that can be many things...but i tend to stick with the one that says as you
move towards "god" more...you desires will become more like his, more in
line with what is the highest for you?
just a thought...
tiffani

[sirbiotech]

i actually don't agree with ra's perspective on desire. i addressed
this in my post last night, but it seems that it was lost in the
yahoo black hole. i think ra's concepts regarding desire are not
really demonstrating the deep insight one would expect from a being
that resides in the upper sixth density. the key is?what is the
relationship between desires and the mind. ra says: "the proper role
of the entity is in this density to *experience all things desired".
to me this could be perceived as a "wishy washy" teaching in
that it portrays the purpose of our being in the 3-d to experience
all things desired. then ra says to " analyze, accept and
understand these experiences". all analysis is of the mind, not
going beyond the mind, so one remains in the "trap" of the
ego. i
would propose that is dangerous advice that could send someone on a
quest to experience an infinite amount of things in this density?
never coming to an end, because the mind itself is still running the
show.

mind is always looking for a way to perpertuate itself, ot be used in
some way, creating the concept of a path and loves to analyze?any
situation where mind dominates is just fine with mind. it will do
anything to maintain it's dominance in our consciousness.
it's all the game of the ego?very subtle of course, but mind
stuff
all the same.

where is ra's technique to lift oneself out of the mind, and all
desires? this teaching of ra's has one point that is the
problem: it does not allow one to understand the root and nature of
all desires, which, when properly understood, allows one to transcend
all desires, regardless of whether they have been experienced or not,
in this density or any others. the question becomes?what is the
relationship between mind and desire. this is something i think
it's most important to point out. i'll use text from an osho
discourse
to explain my perspective. who knows, maybe ra is saying the same
thing, just sometimes i miss what "he's" getting at.
thought i
needed to throw this into the mix because of how i felt reading
ra's
perspective in david's post.

the gist is?not to seek the experience, analyze and
contemplate?but to just watch when any desire arises, in that
watching, it will just dissolve. you can skip analysis and
contemplation?hopefully you can see how this differs from
ra's
perspective. it may sound too simple?but it is that simple! mind
hates the simplicity in this method, as it bypasses mind, and mind
will do many things to perpetuate it's dominance in our
awareness.

ra's method inexorably involves mind in the very process of
dealing with desire. osho's method goes beyond mind, beyond all
psychology. if one really wants to wake up, you have to go beyond
mind. why wouldn't ra point this out? i don't know the answer
of course, just made me wonder. more and more i realize i relate to
ra's concepts of the science behind the shift, but don't find
the
wisdom of how to "wake up" as relevant. perhaps it's their
difficulty in how to clearly communicate these things to us, or
perhaps due to their quick ascension, they lack the insight into the
mind-dominated consciousness in which humanity is immersed. ra's
advice on this topic does not bring me more into the now, but more
into the mind and the illusion of seeking more experiences based on
desires of the mind. osho takes me directly into the moment, beyond
all desire.

hmmm?interesting situation. i'm beginning to think that we
3-d humans may be capable of deeper wisdom than ra (and of course
this potentially implies other higher density beings), due to our
experience with intense 3-d catalysts and that the level/dimension
one appears to be at is not a reflection of that entities ability to
teach others how to "wake".

peace

--jason

--------------------
by osho

just watch how desire brings hell, how desire is hell. and then don't
ask how to attain to desirelessness, there is no need. if you have
looked into the nature of desire and you have felt it brings misery,
that very understanding will be the dropping of desire. just go on
watching. if it is not dropping that simply shows that your insight
is still not deep enough, so make your insight deep.
and it is not a question that somebody else can enlighten you about --
it is your desire and only you can watch. i cannot watch your
desire. you cannot watch anybody else's desire. it is your private
world. hell or heaven are private things. and within a split second
you can shift from one to another.

just watch....

buddha's word is "watch." be watchful. don't create any desire for
desirelessness, otherwise you are simply behaving in a very stupid
way. now you are creating a new desire -- and this will create
misery. you simply go into the nature of the desire, look deep into
it. watch...how it creates darkness, how it brings misery, how
suddenly it takes you, overpowers you. just go on watching.

one day it is going to happen: a car will pass by and before the
desire has arisen you will become watchful, and suddenly a laughter
will come to you. you have become watchful; the desire has not
arisen. it was just going to be, it was just ready to jump upon you
and take you to hell -- but you were watchful. and you will feel so
happy.

for the first time you will have a key. you will know now that just
being watchful, the desire has not arisen, the car has passed. the
car has nothing to do with desire. desire arises because you are
unconscious, unaware, sleepy; you are living the life of a
somnambulist, drunk.

awareness is desirelessness.

awareness of the desire brings desirelessness. and this key has to be
used to open many locks.

the buddha's way is really the best that has ever been brought to
earth. the buddha's way is the most penetrating and the most
revolutionary way possible. he says: "watch your desires." just watch
and see what it is and how it creates misery for you. in that
watching, a light will start arising in you; your inner flame will
burn bright, and the darkness of the desire will disappear.
now, once you taste something, whatsoever it is, the desire arises
again and again to repeat it.

whatsoever you have known in your past, you go on asking for again
and again in the future. your future is nothing but your modified
past. your future is nothing but the desire to repeat your past.

and, of course, if you live a bored life, nobody else is responsible
for it but you. you ask for boredom. and boredom is misery. you ask
for boredom because you ask for repetition. something happened; for
example, you were sitting, and the first star of the evening was
becoming visible. and you watched. and it was a quiet evening; and it
was cool and birds were returning back to their nests. and it was
silent and it was very musical and you were in tune. just watching
the star becoming visible you felt beautiful. now, you have tasted
something -- you will gather it like a treasure. this treasure will
make you miserable.

first, you will hanker for it again and again. that hankering will
create misery. and it cannot be repeated by your hankering, remember -
- because it happened only because there was no hankering in you. you
were simply sitting there not knowing what was going to happen. it
happened in a state of innocence. it happened in a state of non-
expectation. it happened because you were not looking for it. that is
a basic ingredient in it. you were not looking, you were not asking.
in fact, you were not desiring -- you were simply there. suddenly you
became aware: the first star. and in that moment when you became
aware of the first star, you were not thinking that it was happiness,
remember that too. that comes later on; that is a recapitulation. in
that moment you were simply there -- not happy, not unhappy, nothing.

once you experience something, you start asking for it, you become a
beggar. then it will never happen. and you will carry the memory like
a wound.

have you watched it? watch it: whenever you are happy, in that moment
you don't know it is happiness. it is only afterwards, when the
experience is gone, faded away, is no more, then mind comes in and
starts looking for it, starts comparing, evaluating, judging, and
says: "yes, it was beautiful! so beautiful!" when the experience
itself was present, mind was not present.

happiness is when mind is not.

and when mind comes in, happiness is no more there. now there is only
a memory, a dead memory. your lover is gone; you are just carrying a
letter written by your lover. the flower has faded; just an image in
your mind. this image will not allow happiness to enter again in your
being -- this image will be the barrier, will be the rock.

buddha says: don't carry the past and don't ask for the future --
just be herenow.

buddha says: "passions grow from the will...desires grow from the
will." the i, the ego, is the root of your mind. your whole mind is
centered around the i.

"the will grows from thought and imagination...." thought comes from
the past; imagination means movement in the future. whatsoever you
have experienced, thought, learnt, that is your ego. and whatsoever
you want to experience in your future, would like to have in your
future, is your will. these are two aspects of the same phenomenon.
just watch....that is the key beyond all desires, whatever the
experience one desires may be, even the desire to experience god. all
desire is of the mind? the very thing that prevents one
from "knowing."

the most strange thing about the mind is, if you become a watcher it
starts disappearing. just like the light disperses darkness,
watchfulness disperses the mind, its thoughts, its whole
paraphernalia.

so meditation is simply watchfulness, awareness. and that reveals --
it is nothing to do with inventing. it invents nothing; it simply
discovers that which is there.

and what is there? you enter and you find infinite emptiness, so
tremendously beautiful, so silent, so full of light, so fragrant,
that you have entered into the kingdom of god.

in my words, you have entered into godliness.

[Alexander Kavic, M.D.]

hi jason and all,
everyone has a different perspective and view on things. here are some of
my thoughts. desire is intent, will, willingness, and passion. the entire
universe runs on the following: intent, thought, word, and (action) deed
(manifestation). to take a 1000 mile journey, the intent or desire to take
that journey exists first, followed by the thought of how to take that
journey, followed by the word, related to taking that journey, then the
action-deed of actually taking the journey. when the journey has been taken
and completed that then becomes the deed or manifestation of having taken
the journey. for spirit to be in form (our actual bodies), intent, thought,
word, deed goes as follows: for ego, intent(desire) is security, thought
is self absorbed, word, is justification, and deed is expectation. this
process is what keeps us in form, and keeps us from being ascended and out
of body (out of form). awareness is 95% of the journey. awareness of these
principles may help in the ascension process. it is nice to see that
everyone has the ability to offer varying points of view and perspectives.
together a composite picture of our beingness, of our energy fields or
manifestations on planet earth come into clearer focus. it is fun to learn
and to grow.

with love and light from beyond all worlds,
love and light from all worlds,
love and light from this world,
in unity with love and light,
we are one,
alex

-----original message-----
from: sirbiotech [mailto:sirbiotech@...]
sent: wednesday, march 13, 2002 6:42 pm
to: asc2k@yahoogroups.com
subject: [asc2k] re: is desire the impetus?


i actually don't agree with ra's perspective on desire. i addressed
this in my post last night, but it seems that it was lost in the
yahoo black hole. i think ra's concepts regarding desire are not
really demonstrating the deep insight one would expect from a being
that resides in the upper sixth density. the key is...what is the
relationship between desires and the mind. ra says: "the proper role
of the entity is in this density to *experience all things desired".
to me this could be perceived as a "wishy washy" teaching in
that it portrays the purpose of our being in the 3-d to experience
all things desired. then ra says to " analyze, accept and
understand these experiences". all analysis is of the mind, not
going beyond the mind, so one remains in the "trap" of the
ego. i
would propose that is dangerous advice that could send someone on a
quest to experience an infinite amount of things in this density...
never coming to an end, because the mind itself is still running the
show.

mind is always looking for a way to perpertuate itself, ot be used in
some way, creating the concept of a path and loves to analyze...any
situation where mind dominates is just fine with mind. it will do
anything to maintain it's dominance in our consciousness.
it's all the game of the ego...very subtle of course, but mind
stuff
all the same.

where is ra's technique to lift oneself out of the mind, and all
desires? this teaching of ra's has one point that is the
problem: it does not allow one to understand the root and nature of
all desires, which, when properly understood, allows one to transcend
all desires, regardless of whether they have been experienced or not,
in this density or any others. the question becomes...what is the
relationship between mind and desire. this is something i think
it's most important to point out. i'll use text from an osho
discourse
to explain my perspective. who knows, maybe ra is saying the same
thing, just sometimes i miss what "he's" getting at.
thought i
needed to throw this into the mix because of how i felt reading
ra's
perspective in david's post.

the gist is...not to seek the experience, analyze and
contemplate...but to just watch when any desire arises, in that
watching, it will just dissolve. you can skip analysis and
contemplation...hopefully you can see how this differs from
ra's
perspective. it may sound too simple...but it is that simple! mind
hates the simplicity in this method, as it bypasses mind, and mind
will do many things to perpetuate it's dominance in our
awareness.

ra's method inexorably involves mind in the very process of
dealing with desire. osho's method goes beyond mind, beyond all
psychology. if one really wants to wake up, you have to go beyond
mind. why wouldn't ra point this out? i don't know the answer
of course, just made me wonder. more and more i realize i relate to
ra's concepts of the science behind the shift, but don't find
the
wisdom of how to "wake up" as relevant. perhaps it's their
difficulty in how to clearly communicate these things to us, or
perhaps due to their quick ascension, they lack the insight into the
mind-dominated consciousness in which humanity is immersed. ra's
advice on this topic does not bring me more into the now, but more
into the mind and the illusion of seeking more experiences based on
desires of the mind. osho takes me directly into the moment, beyond
all desire.

hmmm...interesting situation. i'm beginning to think that we
3-d humans may be capable of deeper wisdom than ra (and of course
this potentially implies other higher density beings), due to our
experience with intense 3-d catalysts and that the level/dimension
one appears to be at is not a reflection of that entities ability to
teach others how to "wake".

peace

--jason

--------------------
by osho

just watch how desire brings hell, how desire is hell. and then don't
ask how to attain to desirelessness, there is no need. if you have
looked into the nature of desire and you have felt it brings misery,
that very understanding will be the dropping of desire. just go on
watching. if it is not dropping that simply shows that your insight
is still not deep enough, so make your insight deep.
and it is not a question that somebody else can enlighten you about --
it is your desire and only you can watch. i cannot watch your
desire. you cannot watch anybody else's desire. it is your private
world. hell or heaven are private things. and within a split second
you can shift from one to another.

just watch....

buddha's word is "watch." be watchful. don't create any desire for
desirelessness, otherwise you are simply behaving in a very stupid
way. now you are creating a new desire -- and this will create
misery. you simply go into the nature of the desire, look deep into
it. watch...how it creates darkness, how it brings misery, how
suddenly it takes you, overpowers you. just go on watching.

one day it is going to happen: a car will pass by and before the
desire has arisen you will become watchful, and suddenly a laughter
will come to you. you have become watchful; the desire has not
arisen. it was just going to be, it was just ready to jump upon you
and take you to hell -- but you were watchful. and you will feel so
happy.

for the first time you will have a key. you will know now that just
being watchful, the desire has not arisen, the car has passed. the
car has nothing to do with desire. desire arises because you are
unconscious, unaware, sleepy; you are living the life of a
somnambulist, drunk.

awareness is desirelessness.

awareness of the desire brings desirelessness. and this key has to be
used to open many locks.

the buddha's way is really the best that has ever been brought to
earth. the buddha's way is the most penetrating and the most
revolutionary way possible. he says: "watch your desires." just watch
and see what it is and how it creates misery for you. in that
watching, a light will start arising in you; your inner flame will
burn bright, and the darkness of the desire will disappear.
now, once you taste something, whatsoever it is, the desire arises
again and again to repeat it.

whatsoever you have known in your past, you go on asking for again
and again in the future. your future is nothing but your modified
past. your future is nothing but the desire to repeat your past.

and, of course, if you live a bored life, nobody else is responsible
for it but you. you ask for boredom. and boredom is misery. you ask
for boredom because you ask for repetition. something happened; for
example, you were sitting, and the first star of the evening was
becoming visible. and you watched. and it was a quiet evening; and it
was cool and birds were returning back to their nests. and it was
silent and it was very musical and you were in tune. just watching
the star becoming visible you felt beautiful. now, you have tasted
something -- you will gather it like a treasure. this treasure will
make you miserable.

first, you will hanker for it again and again. that hankering will
create misery. and it cannot be repeated by your hankering, remember -
- because it happened only because there was no hankering in you. you
were simply sitting there not knowing what was going to happen. it
happened in a state of innocence. it happened in a state of non-
expectation. it happened because you were not looking for it. that is
a basic ingredient in it. you were not looking, you were not asking.
in fact, you were not desiring -- you were simply there. suddenly you
became aware: the first star. and in that moment when you became
aware of the first star, you were not thinking that it was happiness,
remember that too. that comes later on; that is a recapitulation. in
that moment you were simply there -- not happy, not unhappy, nothing.

once you experience something, you start asking for it, you become a
beggar. then it will never happen. and you will carry the memory like
a wound.

have you watched it? watch it: whenever you are happy, in that moment
you don't know it is happiness. it is only afterwards, when the
experience is gone, faded away, is no more, then mind comes in and
starts looking for it, starts comparing, evaluating, judging, and
says: "yes, it was beautiful! so beautiful!" when the experience
itself was present, mind was not present.

happiness is when mind is not.

and when mind comes in, happiness is no more there. now there is only
a memory, a dead memory. your lover is gone; you are just carrying a
letter written by your lover. the flower has faded; just an image in
your mind. this image will not allow happiness to enter again in your
being -- this image will be the barrier, will be the rock.

buddha says: don't carry the past and don't ask for the future --
just be herenow.

buddha says: "passions grow from the will...desires grow from the
will." the i, the ego, is the root of your mind. your whole mind is
centered around the i.

"the will grows from thought and imagination...." thought comes from
the past; imagination means movement in the future. whatsoever you
have experienced, thought, learnt, that is your ego. and whatsoever
you want to experience in your future, would like to have in your
future, is your will. these are two aspects of the same phenomenon.
just watch....that is the key beyond all desires, whatever the
experience one desires may be, even the desire to experience god. all
desire is of the mind... the very thing that prevents one
from "knowing."

the most strange thing about the mind is, if you become a watcher it
starts disappearing. just like the light disperses darkness,
watchfulness disperses the mind, its thoughts, its whole
paraphernalia.

so meditation is simply watchfulness, awareness. and that reveals --
it is nothing to do with inventing. it invents nothing; it simply
discovers that which is there.

and what is there? you enter and you find infinite emptiness, so
tremendously beautiful, so silent, so full of light, so fragrant,
that you have entered into the kingdom of god.

in my words, you have entered into godliness.




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[sirbiotech]

one other teacher on the nature of desire, which i feel is worth
sharing while we are on this topic, because it truly gets to the
heart of self-realization as well. --jason

eckhart tolle

start listening to the voice in your head as often as you can. pay
particular attention to any repetitive thought patterns, those old
gramophone records that have been playing in your head perhaps for
many years - be there as the witnessing presence. when you listen to
that voice, listen to it impartially. that is to say do not
judge .... for doing so would mean that the same voice has come in
again through the back door. you'll soon realize: there is the
voice, and here i am listening to it, watching it. this i am
realisation, this sense of your own presence, is not a thought. it
arises from beyond the mind.

all cravings are the mind seeking salvation or fulfillment in
external things and in the future as a substitute for the joy of
being.

in that state, even my desire to become free or enlightened is just
another craving for fulfillment or completion in the future.

so don't seek to become free of desire or "achieve" enlightenment.
become present. be there as the observer of the mind.

[asciilight]

jason... thanks for a great post! your analysis of ra has proven to
be a catalyst for me... made me realise i havent been 'questioning'
channeled material recently as much as i should/used to.

whilst i agree with you that ra isnt giving us a method to transend
desire and the mind, i dont think it is because ra lacks wisdom. i
believe the reason is because we incarnate into 3d to learn and
experience life where we can fully explore desire. desire can only be
fully explored in 3d because 3d is the only density where entities
have free will.

> the gist is?not to seek the experience, analyze and
> contemplate?but to just watch when any desire arises, in that
> watching, it will just dissolve. you can skip analysis and
> contemplation?hopefully you can see how this differs from
> ra's perspective.

i think the point of 3d is that we can seek any experience and then
with analysation and contemplation we learn from that experience and
grow as an entity. if we watch desire, skip analysis and
contemplation what would we have learned?

i agree with your methods in the sense that this is what a
master/adept of the 3d plane would do but i dont think ra is trying
to teach us how to be a master/adept of the 3d plane he is just
telling us the reason for 3d experience.

hope im not way off the mark here, havent got too much time to post
at the minute so thought id just give you my impressions/opinions and
see what you think.

robin.

[Chamil1950@...]

>
> i mean, wouldn't being at unity being at one with
> divine will, which is, in and of itself, a desire?
>
> jeremy

> maybe in 3d, but once you get past 3d, i would think "being at unity" would
just be without the desire. you might have some residual affects in 4d maybe.
not remembering myself as anything but 3d, this is all speculation on my part
. chris
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[Chamil1950@...]

> well, does that mean that ra has no desire? i
> remember ra stating explicitly in several places that
> they/it desired to serve us.

as i had remarked some time ago, my ra is woefully inadequate, so i will not
make a comment on this. i have a 9-5 job and a husband who thinks all of this is
"voodoo s**" but i still love him. it is difficult to get all the stuff read.
>
> if there is no will at unity, how did creation come
> about?
nothing was "created". it's always been. chris
>
> jeremy
>
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[Chamil1950@...]

in a message dated thu, 14 mar 2002 5:12:14 pm eastern standard time, jeremy
weiland <greenlantern113@...> writes:

> > nothing was "created". it's always been. chris
>
> well, then what has ra been talking about as far as
> catalyst?
here's my one guess-how about us (3d schlupps)?

i mean, yeah, in one sense it's all an
> illusion, but there is the other sense where the is
> purpose in the illusion and the experience thereof,
> and where there is purpose, is there not will?
> are we talking free will here or the "need" to do something?

> this isn't really a ra question, more like one of
> those unanswerable enigmas of all time... just thought
> maybe i could cross that one off my list of enigmas.
> :-)
and you thought i had all the answers?sheesh, jeremy
> chris

> jeremy
>
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