Are we trapped in existence?

[Andrew]

are we trapped in existence? it seems a nasty thing to do to a person if its
against his/her free will.



apols if i'm out of line for asking,

drew



[non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[bercano]

hiya andrew.....smiless....loves your question!!
you know....the idea, that anythinggggggg is in/of belonging/
ownership...as in mine....is to me, what slips in, as
attachment....even that of a partiality of false
identification...the lemme call it 'insistance, that claims
individual soul as in mine....does that make sense??
my-existance/soul therefor can only be...due to source/prime-
existance.....and what i experienced....i would very much so
express 'it' as parent/child relationship.
i suppose one could use the word 'surrendering-into' prime-
origin/source.....that does not rob, yet is the giver of that
which would be andrew-existance/iam we-existance....there is
a (re)-cognition, beyond words.....and sooo profound...sooo
incredible freeing......where what we call responability
becomes awww more a response - ability.....and i for
one....lolll what utterly perfect expression..."i for one,
the echo that i am, = for one" ....does not mind, the sense
of a scribt-play....that seems to be, right out of stargate
....to me andrew...its a gifting and deepening that
occured...that does not have nor can find approbiate
words..yet only intensifies the state, that is individual,
yet is not...that also is free choice/will...that is sorta
kinda ....a paradox
love-smilesss,
birgit

recalls a song...there is a stranger in my
house....smiling...where iam-birgit....is the stranger....for
the housing is allthatis, is god??
what a de-light!!

--- in asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=lvk2cthea3-t-wavz-xoovekqdkkaligbwcqjyv2atzequ-iwaoszcfcwzgmbjztzr6qrt2cpnbt40i), "andrew" <ajhagan123456@...>
wrote:
>
> are we trapped in existence? it seems a nasty thing to do
to a person if its
> against his/her free will.
>
>
>
> apols if i'm out of line for asking,
>
> drew
>
>
>
> [non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[jeffreykiksit]

yea, ive always found questions like this tough, because: is our true
free will contolled by our higher self? in which case, with the veil
of forgetting in place you may not even really know what your own will
really wants.......


--- in asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=w7aq4kyx3dgmxg5yhx58l0n79xlcmggw9lhipq clzkr888v_smazjj6thnjt2jvqxkqrstf6ydfqsa-roq), "andrew" <ajhagan123456@...> wrote:
>
> are we trapped in existence? it seems a nasty thing to do to a person
if its
> against his/her free will.

[bluephoenix010]

--- in asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=ushusxysi5c_ybmwjqzn_x3virlzz_hnvqeriz 1d_m19inhrzc5hs4lqqnn7mqoscesc6h9ui7gfbm4zug), "andrew" <ajhagan123456@...> wrote:
>
> are we trapped in existence? it seems a nasty thing to do to a person
if its
> against his/her free will.
>


not if we chose to exist.

[M.W.]

... sounds like my little sister, "i didn't ask
to be born!" she wailed.

yeah, i've felt the same way at times.

part of the problem revolves around where this "person"
originated from. created by god then dumped into a
hostile environment? that is not far removed from a
concept that could be extracted from the bible.

but it seems to me that were generated from the ground
up -- our "person" is a product of our journey... not
so much "back to god" but to god, if you will.

whatever, we are exactly where we should be at this,
umm, well, whatever time really is. and do keep in mind
that our personality shell and ego are just a tiny
fraction of what "we" really are.

so, everyone staighten up and stop acting like,well,
humanoids? (:>)

and one last thought. the concept of free will is
a very complex and difficult philosophical problem,
one that has never been satisfactorly defined.

during my "christian" period i soon found that
orthodoxy was divided into two camps, roughly
identified as "arminians" and "calvinists."
the spilt was over the question of freewill.
the arminians assumed we had it, the calvinist,
not. the argument was really focused on the
issue of salvation...can sinful man turn to
god through an act of free will? the calvinists
said no, the change had to come by the grace of
god that must come by the so-called divine.
"election"

needless to say, there is a scarcity of
calvinists right now...it is not a popular
doctrine, because, naturally, everyone assumes
that they have free will -- even if they don't
know exactly what it is.

since the first distortion, according to the
ra material, is that of "free will" it is a most
vital question, albeit removed from the above
mentioned orthodox religious tangle.

an insightfl but not very helpful definition of
free will might be something like this:

"free will is the abiding inclination of the
permanent spiritual self."

to a degree i think what have here on earth is not
exactly free will per se but rather caprice. we are
here to explore, stumble into trouble, then try to get
ourselves out of it! the idea is that the "cosmos"
learns about itself from our/its explorative
adventures in created finity. to be guided away
from all misadventures would be to undermine the
mission.

hmm. i hope i'm not out of line by going out on the
limb postulating such! if so, pick me up and set me
off on the right course! please!

my very best, billybobphilosopohicus



--- in asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=ixhm_e1p7v_denqxq5sa1jitivvazywf2ursgi ib8xfdqomq5jvgoa1__4dzdllci2h8s5ymtfzkfm9re08b6q), "andrew" <ajhagan123456@...> wrote:
>
> are we trapped in existence? it seems a nasty thing to do to a
person if its
> against his/her free will.
>
>
>
> apols if i'm out of line for asking,
>
> drew
>
>
>
> [non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Del]

are we trapped in existence? it seems a nasty thing to do to a
person if its
against his/her free will.
==========================
i'm afraid so. even "god" is trapped in existence and unable to undo
"himself."

so, let's make the most of it. :)

jon
__________________________________________________ ______________________
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[Michael Bergman]

wouldn't there need to be existence in order for a choice to be made
otherwise who would be making such a choice to exist? i don't know but being
infinite seems to imply that you have no choice but to be infinite

peace,
mikey


>from: "bluephoenix010" <1129@... (/group/asc2k/post?postid=dbhni02brvcgmvuk_uqpi5ygci7nuh-taglxuxabisr74apqyyjekx3rxr17fakzcxlsco35e5awaieg)>
>reply-to: asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=k2swrde9yz5kerser7eiy7_hvvktvvsukm0a6y q01-5ehjfxj7-spxmvnljmr9zjcggortiywhyqidb_xu8)
>to: asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=k2swrde9yz5kerser7eiy7_hvvktvvsukm0a6y q01-5ehjfxj7-spxmvnljmr9zjcggortiywhyqidb_xu8)
>subject: [asc2k] re: are we trapped in existence?
>date: fri, 01 dec 2006 18:06:20 -0000
>
>--- in asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=k2swrde9yz5kerser7eiy7_hvvktvvsukm0a6y q01-5ehjfxj7-spxmvnljmr9zjcggortiywhyqidb_xu8), "andrew" <ajhagan123456@...> wrote:
> >
> > are we trapped in existence? it seems a nasty thing to do to a person
>if its
> > against his/her free will.
> >
>
>
>not if we chose to exist.
>

__________________________________________________ _______________
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[Andrew]

hmmm,



so "lump it" you're here/around to stay! ;) does that make ascension
mandatory and unavoidable?



:-)



_____

from: asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=1pekeb7alur8r465znctpxfpa9pslieqnnhe1y shpdrk8hfahegrtmj4r9qmvluj-njwtcwaohtujymjcpq) [mailto:asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=1pekeb7alur8r465znctpxfpa9pslieqnnhe1y shpdrk8hfahegrtmj4r9qmvluj-njwtcwaohtujymjcpq)] on behalf of
michael bergman
sent: saturday, 2 december 2006 8:49 am
to: asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=1pekeb7alur8r465znctpxfpa9pslieqnnhe1y shpdrk8hfahegrtmj4r9qmvluj-njwtcwaohtujymjcpq)
subject: re: [asc2k] re: are we trapped in existence?



wouldn't there need to be existence in order for a choice to be made
otherwise who would be making such a choice to exist? i don't know but being

infinite seems to imply that you have no choice but to be infinite

peace,
mikey

>from: "bluephoenix010" <1129@postmaster. <mailto:1129%40postmaster.co.uk>
co.uk>
>reply-to: asc2k@yahoogroups. <mailto:asc2k%40yahoogroups.com> com
>to: asc2k@yahoogroups. <mailto:asc2k%40yahoogroups.com> com
>subject: [asc2k] re: are we trapped in existence?
>date: fri, 01 dec 2006 18:06:20 -0000
>
>--- in asc2k@yahoogroups. <mailto:asc2k%40yahoogroups.com> com, "andrew"
<ajhagan123456@...> wrote:
> >
> > are we trapped in existence? it seems a nasty thing to do to a person
>if its
> > against his/her free will.
> >
>
>
>not if we chose to exist.
>

__________________________________________________ ________
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<http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=
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mailtaglinenov06&form=wlmtag





[non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Andrew]

yes, does the decision translate from an astral choice to a basic 3d
instinct ( "fight or flight")? or is f or f just to lessen the educational
path to ascension (ie reduce the number of "game" restarts)? or is it ego
based, "may my greatness continue!"? i've met some old business men who
probably can't wait to start their heroic journey all over again . . .
yikes!

:|

-----original message-----
from: asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=gtpkash8dmri3bwunyo-hg9qul6x3pg2rsoivlvtt3uvtjt5hosd8v7qh4rtehpmlwuek9 vn5jpfizyj) [mailto:asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=gtpkash8dmri3bwunyo-hg9qul6x3pg2rsoivlvtt3uvtjt5hosd8v7qh4rtehpmlwuek9 vn5jpfizyj)] on behalf of
jeffreykiksit
sent: saturday, 2 december 2006 4:15 am
to: asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=gtpkash8dmri3bwunyo-hg9qul6x3pg2rsoivlvtt3uvtjt5hosd8v7qh4rtehpmlwuek9 vn5jpfizyj)
subject: [asc2k] re: are we trapped in existence?

yea, ive always found questions like this tough, because: is our true
free will contolled by our higher self? in which case, with the veil
of forgetting in place you may not even really know what your own will
really wants.......

--- in asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=gtpkash8dmri3bwunyo-hg9qul6x3pg2rsoivlvtt3uvtjt5hosd8v7qh4rtehpmlwuek9 vn5jpfizyj) <mailto:asc2k%40yahoogroups.com> , "andrew"
wrote:
>
> are we trapped in existence? it seems a nasty thing to do to a person
if its
> against his/her free will.

[Andrew]

wow, this will take a bit of understanding.

so everyone/thing is part of the larger divine one which exists forever. "i"
as a "echo"(i'll say "viewpoint") of the divine called andrew must also
live/exist forever, or until the higher one has no need of the viewpoint . .
. in which case there is no i/me . . . and choice is not "mine" to own?

"i" will go back and read the recent "ego"/"self identification" definitions
to find out where it originates from and answer my questions. it is maybe a
matter of how long this viewpoint with its concept of choice will last.

"i" sure wish however that god would clip his viewpoints when they ask for
trimming!

anyhow, thank you birgit, another angle for my viewpoint's deliberations.

:)

-----original message-----
from: asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=as7mzik6klohu2jcgf1t2zl8ln9uvvsiaeay38 l7q_36nramerkcrk8tuvuxx3udsfyihtxfxlccn5silxq) [mailto:asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=as7mzik6klohu2jcgf1t2zl8ln9uvvsiaeay38 l7q_36nramerkcrk8tuvuxx3udsfyihtxfxlccn5silxq)] on behalf of
bercano
sent: saturday, 2 december 2006 3:12 am
to: asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=as7mzik6klohu2jcgf1t2zl8ln9uvvsiaeay38 l7q_36nramerkcrk8tuvuxx3udsfyihtxfxlccn5silxq)
subject: [asc2k] re: are we trapped in existence?

hiya andrew.....smiless....loves your question!!
you know....the idea, that anythinggggggg is in/of belonging/
ownership...as in mine....is to me, what slips in, as
attachment....even that of a partiality of false
identification...the lemme call it 'insistance, that claims
individual soul as in mine....does that make sense??
my-existance/soul therefor can only be...due to source/prime-
existance.....and what i experienced....i would very much so
express 'it' as parent/child relationship.
i suppose one could use the word 'surrendering-into' prime-
origin/source.....that does not rob, yet is the giver of that
which would be andrew-existance/iam we-existance....there is
a (re)-cognition, beyond words.....and sooo profound...sooo
incredible freeing......where what we call responability
becomes awww more a response - ability.....and i for
one....lolll what utterly perfect expression..."i for one,
the echo that i am, = for one" ....does not mind, the sense
of a scribt-play....that seems to be, right out of stargate
....to me andrew...its a gifting and deepening that
occured...that does not have nor can find approbiate
words..yet only intensifies the state, that is individual,
yet is not...that also is free choice/will...that is sorta
kinda ....a paradox
love-smilesss,
birgit

[Michael Abrient]

on 12/1/06, andrew <ajhagan123456@... (/group/asc2k/post?postid=hkvettqnln7t5rmnxfjbeb3eenb9qa1jbnn0cr yaqjwij-a2fe_8nz3ytjbo_fr6mriv8ltondajrpn2y1dhkq-rzge)> wrote:
>
> are we trapped in existence? it seems a nasty thing to do to a person if
> its
> against his/her free will.


a : not outta line... there isn't non-existence. anything you could ever
experience, even experience itself, would inescapably fall into the "i am",
the beingness of the moment. pure being, pure consciousness, whatever you
want to call it it's really not that big of a deal, is the most liberating
form of existence/ experience you can have.

it might seem like we're trapped as humans, but that's because our minds and
our ability to create are so powerful.


thanks for asking


[non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[bluephoenix010]

from my perpective. in accordance with the ra material, if you a big
mesh of thing which is the one infintite creator. along comes the
first distortion etc. the different parts of the one infinite creator
mesh into a being with a valid illusion of seperation and the
different parts choose to exist as one before they actually exist.

but the original question was whether it violate the free will of
a 'person' to exist. the being exists for a long time and makes very
definite decisions into what it desires before it becomes a person,
correct? therefore, it can be said that it has chosen with it's free
will to exist.

unless there is a gap in my theory?

namaste,




--- in asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=-inmktd1k15znw7yolvo1zvrxfyrpa1snx3dv8h34qwtpgl9j6x xvcasry8gw0zsfo8ceovely_fhlqtfzztuq), "michael bergman" <bergmanmichael@...>
wrote:
>
> wouldn't there need to be existence in order for a choice to be
made
> otherwise who would be making such a choice to exist? i don't know
but being
> infinite seems to imply that you have no choice but to be infinite
>
> peace,
> mikey
>
>
>

[Andrew]

he he he,



i flicked on dr. phil one day while channel surfing and heard your sister's
statement which made me flick back, unfortunately the young chap withdrew
the statement and the topic never got underway. bummer, he was too young to
put up a good debate in any case. i guess "get over it and move on" would
have been the retort. one kis* statement deserves another.



thank you for your view bill. so if i understand correctly, you are
suggesting that free will maybe either an aggregate of various parts of a
"personality shell" (a reason for caprice for sure) or just the separation
from god decision itself. thus my "being" is not unified into a non-existing
decision or the scope of freewill is not as large as i assume and the choice
to exist or not is not within this scope, in which case it comes from a
divine plan.



that seems to provide an explanation for sure, and something to ponder.



thank you again,

:-)



* kis = "keep it simple"

_____

from: asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=0tkzdcyoqlbz9iyiuous5dy8uhetj8girwbtrr jrrmnsdzol9tahym7r5_pvwf_kqgifdvrmydjiulzl2_8) [mailto:asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=0tkzdcyoqlbz9iyiuous5dy8uhetj8girwbtrr jrrmnsdzol9tahym7r5_pvwf_kqgifdvrmydjiulzl2_8)] on behalf of m.w.
(bill )gieskieng
sent: saturday, 2 december 2006 5:41 am
to: asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=0tkzdcyoqlbz9iyiuous5dy8uhetj8girwbtrr jrrmnsdzol9tahym7r5_pvwf_kqgifdvrmydjiulzl2_8)
subject: [asc2k] re: are we trapped in existence?


... sounds like my little sister, "i didn't ask
to be born!" she wailed.

yeah, i've felt the same way at times.

part of the problem revolves around where this "person"
originated from. created by god then dumped into a
hostile environment? that is not far removed from a
concept that could be extracted from the bible.

but it seems to me that were generated from the ground
up -- our "person" is a product of our journey... not
so much "back to god" but to god, if you will.

[Andrew]

thanks for your thoughts michael,



i certaintly relate to being trapped as human, it's the most tangible and
real experience from my perspective.

i like your description of the real existence.



:-)



_____

from: asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=ldrqwwbdbzr05xjtfh4rxirt_rsl1zn48meoem 5n0yd5tj29pcnq7bcpapbo4w5oyazoiejwtak_9n9dlqo) [mailto:asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=ldrqwwbdbzr05xjtfh4rxirt_rsl1zn48meoem 5n0yd5tj29pcnq7bcpapbo4w5oyazoiejwtak_9n9dlqo)] on behalf of
michael abrient
sent: saturday, 2 december 2006 10:48 am
to: asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postid=ldrqwwbdbzr05xjtfh4rxirt_rsl1zn48meoem 5n0yd5tj29pcnq7bcpapbo4w5oyazoiejwtak_9n9dlqo)
subject: re: [asc2k] are we trapped in existence?



on 12/1/06, andrew < . . . > wrote:
>
> are we trapped in existence? it seems a nasty thing to do to a person if
> its
> against his/her free will.

a : not outta line... there isn't non-existence. anything you could ever
experience, even experience itself, would inescapably fall into the "i am",
the beingness of the moment. pure being, pure consciousness, whatever you
want to call it it's really not that big of a deal, is the most liberating
form of existence/ experience you can have.

it might seem like we're trapped as humans, but that's because our minds and
our ability to create are so powerful.

thanks for asking





[non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[M.W.]

>
> thank you for your view bill. so if i understand correctly, you are
> suggesting that free will maybe either an aggregate of various
> parts of a "personality shell"

the aggregate you mention above would be considered
one's "nature." the will is not a separate faculty
but rather an expression of the inclination of
one's abiding nature. the act of a choice is an
effect rather than a cause. in one sense we are
free to attempt what we will, but at the same time
the will is in bondage to our nature since it is
determined by it ... the will is not free in the
sense of being uncaused.


>(a reason for caprice for sure)

i meant caprice in the sense of an accident, or such
as simply flipping a coin to determine a choice --
which would be the abandonedment of making a personal
choice. changing one's mind in preformng an action,
simply to prove that one has free will, qualifies
as caprice and doesn't prove the point intended.

i really should post the positive and negative
definition of will to help clarify the ground. as i
said, it is more complex than most would guess.


> or just the separation
> from god decision itself.

i don't think there was ever any occasion for
such a decision at the personal ego level we
experience in 3-d. the one creator created a
finite aspect of herself to be explored from
the 1-d "ground" up. "we" are a mode of that
aspect.


>thus my "being" is not unified into a non-existing
> decision

that sentence is a metaphysical puzzle in itself!
is there a double negative lurking there?


>or the scope of freewill is not as large as i assume

that one i can figure out... i think.
no, it is not as large as most assume. the scope of
absolute freewill is maybe about a planck's length
radius. no. less.

does god have absolute free will? absolutely not.

> and the choice
> to exist or not is not within this scope, in which case it comes
> from a divine plan.

since existence is of god, and we are aspects of god, and
it is in the nature of god to exist, we are stuck with
existing... and the little finite god-aspect of ourselves,
squealing petulantly in protest, is about as impactful to
our greater soul-complex mission as a bothersome pimple
on our butt would be in keeping us from driving to work.


yes, i think there is an outline of sorts. but it is
not micro-managed by divine determination. as a former
agustine/calvinist my view then was that that of
pre-determination. god was absolute perfection and
could not change in any aspect (this is the "grecian"
concept of aristotle -- st thomas aquinas referred
to him as "the philospher")therefore, god knew
the beginning from the end. all was set in divine
marble from eternity. to get around some of the
theosophical problems raised by this rigidity
called for some skillful toe-dancing ... and
i knew some really talented performers! (:>)

for a more reasonable examination concernng the
philosophical nature of god please google
charles hartshorn. check out his important
contribution using a logically derived truth-table
in comparing some 26 definition of god. the one
he found that came out on top fits the ra
material like a well-tailored suit!

my best wishes! i hope i wasn't too muddy...
i certainly was too long! i hope i didn't
do any major injustice to the law of one.

desclaimer ...if it don't fit, don't wear it!

best! bill g