Experiencing the Creator

[nzwasp]

I was having a conversation with a Buddhist friend of mine, and part of what we
were talking about was experiencing the Creator. God/Creator is Love, as we both
agreed, but he said that - though God is present always - you cannot
*experience* God through actions that are not of Love: murder was the example we
talked over.

His point was that if we murder someone we do not experience the Creator because
the action was not out of love, and since God is love, it is impossible to
experiencing Him. The conversation occured at an interesting time, actually,
since for the past week or so I have been taking the LoO's advice of finding the
love in each moment to a new level for myself - finding the love in the actions
of a serial killer.

It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far is that those
actions could possibly be done out of some level of love for the self. My friend
stated, though, that that would more so be love of the ego-self, not the true
self which is beyond the ego. But I'm not sure.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a confusing matter for me
here :)

Eternal Love,
John

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[j_stubler]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=rVHckbDXy4drAgir8VydqE4pxPan_vAV1GMQcb x-yw_U7iRpW6oYwHFgA2Q5nfjZeN03yVFM-PA7rAvH), cococube11@... wrote:
>
> I was having a conversation with a Buddhist friend of mine, and
part of what we were talking about was experiencing the Creator.
God/Creator is Love, as we both agreed, but he said that - though
God is present always - you cannot *experience* God through actions
that are not of Love: murder was the example we talked over.
>
> His point was that if we murder someone we do not experience the
Creator because the action was not out of love, and since God is
love, it is impossible to experiencing Him. The conversation occured
at an interesting time, actually, since for the past week or so I
have been taking the LoO's advice of finding the love in each moment
to a new level for myself - finding the love in the actions of a
serial killer.
>
> It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far is
that those actions could possibly be done out of some level of love
for the self. My friend stated, though, that that would more so be
love of the ego-self, not the true self which is beyond the ego. But
I'm not sure.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a confusing
matter for me here :)
>
> Eternal Love,
> John
>
(Joe)

I am basing my reply on what I have read in the Law of One. ALL is
One --- and our experiences are, for lack of a better word, called
distortions. Someone please correct me if I am wrong in this. So
even the murderer would be experiencing "for" God. Not only are
those who LOVE part of God --- but so are those that DO NOT love.

Peace,

Joe

[* Zia]

JOHN:

I have been taking the LoO's advice of finding the love in each moment to
a new level for myself - finding the love in the actions of a serial killer.

It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far is that those
actions could possibly be done out of some level of love for the self. My
friend
stated, though, that that would more so be love of the ego-self, not the
true
self which is beyond the ego. But I'm not sure.

ZIA:

HI John :) I have not posted for quite some time on this forum, however I
am drawn to respond to your question here, offering another perspective.
What does LoO mean by 'finding the love in each moment?' Where must we
initially ALWAYS find that Love? Is it within SELF first? meaning YOU, the
one that is observing an other?

What this offers is the opportunity to remember LOVE that is SELF. Then the
opportunity to remember LOVE as OTHER, knowing that the Love I am is the
same Love as Other. That is for me finding the Love in each moment. It
starts always with myself. That also then ceases any potential judgment in
myself of an other.

I remember the 'creation' of this universe and its gift. A choice was given
and we have FREE WILL, the mandate of this universe, to be, LOVE or NOT
LOVE. In order to experience what is NOT LOVE, we chose to forget we are
LOVE, and in a sense through free will choice, we must CHOOSE LOVE once
again. What will cause us to remember LOVE?

Is there really any ONE that is not LOVE? The serial killer presents
perhaps the greatest challenge of demonstrating NOT LOVE to itself. What is
cause in the mind of a serial killer to choose such an action? Obviously
the choice is to demonstrate NOT LOVE. Many might look for the 'reason' to
be that the serial killer never received LOVE in their childhood or some
such thing, yet, we all know that we can only draw to us, equal TO US. Thus
the serial killer has simply made the choice to BE NOT LOVE, the mandate of
this universe, in order to discover, and experience LOVE and make the FREE
WILL CHOICE to BE LOVE, and nothing else. Thus the serial killer simply is
the extreme of NOT LOVE striving to awaken to LOVE. The serial killer
offers itself the opportunity to see the intensity of its chosen BELIEF
through actions or experiences demonstrating NOT LOVE.

We are seeing 'polarized extremes' of NOT LOVE. We may also be experiencing
LOVE in ever expanding wonderment. Perhaps in the depths of extreme denial
of LOVE, or deeply asleep such as in a coma, it takes an extreme
action/experience to awaken.

In my remembering LOVE, for my SELF and OTHER, that is the power to awaken
OTHER. The mind that is LOVE simply holds OTHER in the same state of LOVE.
Who can see LOVE in the 'actions' of a serial killer? There is NOT LOVE in
such actions. So often we confuse behaviors and actions as the judgment of
LOVE/NOT LOVE. The ONE that CHOSE NOT LOVE is STILL LOVE, just not
demonstrating a LOVING ACTION. LOVE is a 'state of mind' that is so
powerful, it not only can move mountains, rather it can simply re-awaken an
OTHER TO LOVE that it has always been.

It IS our experiences that we have chosen, that JOLT us into another choice;
that is the purpose of such a catalyst, to re-awaken and remember LOVE. Was
such an intense and shocking catalyst chosen from a deep LOVE of self and
all LIFE, in order to re-awaken that knowingness????

I also recall within the RA materials if I remember correctly :) that such a
catalyst has ongoing effects presented as catalyst within family, culture,
society, and in many ways an ever widening circle, that we all can gain from
such a catalyst, by remembering to choose LOVE once again, for self and
other.

Another question might be: What would cause one to see death as a solution
to the experiences of life?

[Pi]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=s97q-RW28LVvrP8H2Ygh05ECgnCMityaBYGUIuWRNMwMyFDfFyhEWLa aJnEpp8Llp8_eIEriWA1JHz203w), jOHN wrote:
> His point was that if we murder someone we do not experience the
Creator because the action was not out of love, and since God is
love, it is impossible to experiencing Him. The conversation occured
at an interesting time, actually, since for the past week or so I
have been taking the LoO's advice of finding the love in each moment
to a new level for myself - finding the love in the actions of a
serial killer.
> It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far is
that those actions could possibly be done out of some level of love
for the self. My friend stated, though, that that would more so be
love of the ego-self, not the true self which is beyond the ego. But
I'm not sure.
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a confusing
matter for me here :)

Pi: To be "finding THE LOVE in the ACTIONS of a serial killer" why
is it necessary to determine if the serial killer is experiencing
love? To start with, love is by definition beyond definition in
language & intellect. A second point is, it seems THE LOVE that we
want to find is THE LOVE WE HAVE for the ACTIONS of a serial killer
in the moment, not the love that exists in the ACTIONS of a serial
killer. To find THE LOVE, we need to look within self; we need to
consider the self as both killer and victim.

If i / you / we consider the self as killer and as victim, we will
find pervasive fear everywhere. Can we face that fear? have love for
it? feel express show vibrate with love for the actions it generated?
If so, we will be living in the moment with love.

Peace & Love, pi

[Darak]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=dscbyt1AsbHYB3TjWDrbjZ6zYIzFO7gJczweGE 747gN5Ez8OQVnqnxk3uJLJC1PTK3A5j8fQIeLej4fHS4A), cococube11@... wrote:
>
> I was having a conversation with a Buddhist friend of mine, and
part of what we were talking about was experiencing the Creator.
God/Creator is Love, as we both agreed, but he said that - though
God is present always - you cannot *experience* God through actions
that are not of Love: murder was the example we talked over.
>
> His point was that if we murder someone we do not experience the
Creator because the action was not out of love, and since God is
love, it is impossible to experiencing Him. The conversation occured
at an interesting time, actually, since for the past week or so I
have been taking the LoO's advice of finding the love in each moment
to a new level for myself - finding the love in the actions of a
serial killer.
>
> It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far is
that those actions could possibly be done out of some level of love
for the self. My friend stated, though, that that would more so be
love of the ego-self, not the true self which is beyond the ego. But
I'm not sure.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a confusing
matter for me here :)
>
> Eternal Love,
> John
>

John,
Let me preface my reply by stating that this is my first post so I
hope everyone will keep that in mind. Also I send Love and Light to
all and I am extremely happy that there is a such a Yahoo group
where we can discuss the Law of One and the path to 4th density. I
am grateful that I found David's site, it has been part of my
awakening process which only started last December. I have been a
memeber for about a month and I have read every message since then
and I am humbled to be in the presence of many great people who
devote theirselves to discovering the path to the Creator through
service to others.

From what I understand, for most of us, it is hard to imagine how
the taking of another's life is in any way an experience of Love. I
think both you and your Buddhist friend are quite right, however, in
your own way. As I understand RA's teachings, 3rd density is about
the Creator experiencing itself in as many ways as possible. Our
Logos allows for free will, and you can only move on to 4th density
by making a choice. Most of us (or hopefully all of us on this
board at least) are polarized to a STO path, so taking a life is not
Love for others (far from it) and thus not Love for self. But what
does it mean for someone oriented towards service to self? Taking
someone's life could mean a gain in power for them, a gain in
polarity towards STS, for example in the case where a politician
would take the life of a rival or a higher up to gain more power in
that political arena. I would distinguish, however, between a
serial killer and the aforementioned case, because a serial killer
may not be polarized in either direction, and may be, as someone
pointed out, in need of Love. I think that is an important
distinction because we are dealing with a case of intent and choice,
where on one hand we may have someone intentionally wanting to take
life and on the other we may have one not polarized at all, with
possibly a disease that makes them that way. It is even possible
the serial killer be manipulated by a hgiher density STS entity to
take life in order for that higher density entity to gain power and
polarize more towards STS. So I think your Buddhist friend is part
right because although these experiences may present an opportunity
for Love of self, in a STS polarity this is not the true LOVE of the
Creator because these are mere 3rd density experiences and on the
path back to the Source, in the higher densities, even those on the
STS path have to realize the true LOVE of the Creator in order to
ascend beyond 6th density. This is what I think your friend is
speaking of when he says it is the love of the ego self not the love
of the True Self or the Higher Self if you will that guides us from
higher densities. And since All are One, it can't truly be that
anti-love equals love.

You have a point though that each moment, even a murderous moment is
an expression of Love of the Creator in many ways. A murder can
present an opportunity for the deepest Love polarizing towards both
STO and STS. Take an example of a fire in a building. Say the fire
is started by an arsonist, who will gain loads of money if the
building burns down. Now imagine a firefighter running inside the
uilding that is near collapsing because of the skill with which the
fire was set. They are going inside to rescue a child. With effort
the firefighter rescues the child then manages to escape the
building saving the child's life only to succumb to smoke inhalation
and die on the spot. Or let's take your serial killer. A person
around the place where the serial killer lives notices suspicious
behavior being exhibited by another. They decide to take action and
in the process is murdered by the serial killer. Their actions (you
can work out the details yourselves, I'm not screenwriter ;)) lead
the police to the serial killer in time to save the latest potential
victim. That is a beautiful moment, in that that person has
experienced the Love of the Creator and polarized more towards STO
by saving a life n place of their own.

Well those are my thoughts, sorry for such a long winded first post.

Love and Light to All Forever,
Darak

[Darak]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=Pz5iedIcMlcdUj1YQ3H4XNa9MBpPIdnKKluQnx QZrQywKkEHBYWPJ0DbyOpQeU4radu9serMD2Jl1IBWE5JkEw), cococube11@... wrote:
>
> God/Creator is Love, as we both agreed, but he said that - though
God is present always - you cannot *experience* God through actions
that are not of Love: murder was the example we talked over.
>
> His point was that if we murder someone we do not experience the
Creator because the action was not out of love, and since God is
love, it is impossible to experiencing Him. Does anyone have any thoughts on
this? It's a bit of a confusing matter for me here :)
> Eternal Love,
> John
>

John,
Let me preface my reply by stating that this is my first post so I
hope everyone will keep that in mind. Also I send Love and Light to
all and I am extremely happy that there is a such a Yahoo group
where we can discuss the Law of One and the path to 4th density. I
am grateful that I found David's site, it has been part of my
awakening process which only started last December. I have been a
memeber for about a month and I have read every message since then
and I am humbled to be in the presence of many great people who
devote theirselves to discovering the path to the Creator through
service to others.

From what I understand, for most of us, it is hard to imagine how
the taking of another's life is in any way an experience of Love. I
think both you and your Buddhist friend are quite right, however, in
your own way. As I understand RA's teachings, 3rd density is about
the Creator experiencing itself in as many ways as possible. Our
Logos allows for free will, and you can only move on to 4th density
by making a choice. Most of us (or hopefully all of us on this
board at least) are polarized to a STO path, so taking a life is not
Love for others (far from it) and thus not Love for self. But what
does it mean for someone oriented towards service to self? Taking
someone's life could mean a gain in power for them, a gain in
polarity towards STS, for example in the case where a politician
would take the life of a rival or a higher up to gain more power in
that political arena. I would distinguish, however, between a
serial killer and the aforementioned case, because a serial killer
may not be polarized in either direction, and may be, as someone
pointed out, in need of Love. I think that is an important
distinction because we are dealing with a case of intent and choice,
where on one hand we may have someone intentionally wanting to take
life and on the other we may have one not polarized at all, with
possibly a disease that makes them that way. It is even possible
the serial killer be manipulated by a hgiher density STS entity to
take life in order for that higher density entity to gain power and
polarize more towards STS. So I think your Buddhist friend is part
right because although these experiences may present an opportunity
for Love of self, in a STS polarity this is not the true LOVE of the
Creator because these are mere 3rd density experiences and on the
path back to the Source, in the higher densities, even those on the
STS path have to realize the true LOVE of the Creator in order to
ascend beyond 6th density. This is what I think your friend is
speaking of when he says it is the love of the ego self not the love
of the True Self or the Higher Self if you will that guides us from
higher densities. And since All are One, it can't truly be that
anti-love equals love.

You have a point though that each moment, even a murderous moment is
an expression of Love of the Creator in many ways. A murder can
present an opportunity for the deepest Love polarizing towards both
STO and STS. Take an example of a fire in a building. Say the fire
is started by an arsonist, who will gain loads of money if the
building burns down. Now imagine a firefighter running inside the
uilding that is near collapsing because of the skill with which the
fire was set. They are going inside to rescue a child. With effort
the firefighter rescues the child then manages to escape the
building saving the child's life only to succumb to smoke inhalation
and die on the spot. Or let's take your serial killer. A person
around the place where the serial killer lives notices suspicious
behavior being exhibited by another. They decide to take action and
in the process is murdered by the serial killer. Their actions (you
can work out the details yourselves, I'm not screenwriter ;)) lead
the police to the serial killer in time to save the latest potential
victim. That is a beautiful moment, in that that person has
experienced the Love of the Creator and polarized more towards STO
by saving a life n place of their own.

Well those are my thoughts, sorry for such a long winded first post.

Love and Light to All Forever,
Darak

[dibbyruth]

Hi John,

I was struck by your letter, because recently a young aquaintence of
mine was convicted of murder. The last time I saw him was when he
came to visit us in the foothills of the Sierra with his family. We
went to Yosemite, and I have an image of him leaping across the
rapids, jumping like a gazelle from rock to rock. He helped the rest
of us by grabbing our hands as we stumbled across. So sweet. And yet
he was able to commit this crime. Normally I don't listen to the
news, or follow high profile murders on the web, but since I knew this
young man, I was transfixed by the story and even more, the responses
of the people involved and those just observing. Many observers
posting on the forums expressed hatred for this boy. I understand the
tendency, because they have no other data points than that of his
public image as a "murderer." On the other hand, the mother of the
murder "victim," even though she was feeling a profound grief as a
result of her loss, expressed compassion for the family of the
murderer, stating that, with the verdict of life in prison without
parole, the pain of losing their son was just beginning.

In session 34 of the Law of One, Ra equates karma with inertia of
action. Those actions will continue until they are "braked" by a
"controlling or higher principle?.This stoppage of the inertia of
action may be called forgiveness. These two concepts are inseparable."

In the same session, Ra states that karma developed in an incarnation
may be "ameliorated":
"?both self and any involved other-self may, at any time through the
process of understanding, acceptance, and forgiveness, ameliorate
these patterns. This is true at any point in an incarnative pattern.
Thus one who has set in motion an action may forgive itself and never
again make that error. This also brakes or stops what you call karma."

So (if my understanding is correct) through self-forgiveness, we can
stop the karma produced by an action we have made in this lifetime.

Further in the same session:
"[The catalyst of pain] creates a potential for learning. The lessons
to be learned vary. Almost always these lessons include patience,
tolerance, and the ability for the light touch."

Ra goes on to say that when a loved one dies, often the catalyst of
emotional pain results in "a bitterness, an impatience, a souring."

(An aside: The various responses to catalyst bring to mind the sweet
Buddhist, Thich Nhat Hanh, who says that we have the seeds of anger
and those of compassion within us, and it is up to us which we choose
to water.)

Perhaps all this might be distilled into the idea that a person who
commits murder is aiding us in stopping our karma by giving us and
himself an opportunity to forgive.

Love,
Ruth

P.S.: You might want to google Aba Gayle. She is wonderful.



--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=i8WVLzmKn1Yu3e0YZbg5l3-Gd1sNZZQjMD8-Hk36DSngL14o3lpEapZmKzxT8XkcvT0yzEDbbMXms3qhySC8), cococube11@... wrote:

> ...It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far is
that those actions could possibly be done out of some level of love
for the self. My friend stated, though, that that would more so be
love of the ego-self, not the true self which is beyond the ego. But
I'm not sure.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a confusing
matter for me here :)
>
> Eternal Love,
> John

[knowtheobscure]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=KWVWi0ccwDSmWls2QztdPzMrzQ68x_Tz930X-Qml5hVVVaew4PQf0fyt1r-EKXbLPmZ0yPqUZbhKB-Q), "j_stubler" <j_stubler@...> wrote:
>
> --- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=KWVWi0ccwDSmWls2QztdPzMrzQ68x_Tz930X-Qml5hVVVaew4PQf0fyt1r-EKXbLPmZ0yPqUZbhKB-Q), cococube11@ wrote:
> >
> > It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far
is
> that those actions could possibly be done out of some level of
love
> for the self. My friend stated, though, that that would more so be
> love of the ego-self, not the true self which is beyond the ego.
But
> I'm not sure.
> >
> > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a confusing
> matter for me here :)
> >
> > Eternal Love,
> > John
> >
> (Joe)
>
> I am basing my reply on what I have read in the Law of One. ALL
is
> One --- and our experiences are, for lack of a better word, called
> distortions. Someone please correct me if I am wrong in this. So
> even the murderer would be experiencing "for" God. Not only are
> those who LOVE part of God --- but so are those that DO NOT love.
>
> Peace,
>
> Joe

I would have to agree with Joe here. Each experience is for the
Creator, even the most obscene and tragic. Love exists in every
moment, whether or not you are able to find it. Even the serial
killer "is" and is surrounded by love, it exists everywhere. The
actions of the serial killer are being interpreted through
distortions. From our perspective these killings may mean one thing,
but considering they exist, they are of love. I think where you are
going wrong in your seeking is that you are searching for something
thats so incredibly inherent to the situation, its easily missed.
Dont search for the concept of love, even if its the penultimate
universal super-duper concept of love, its going to fall short of
what love truly is. I think that what Ra meant when he said find the
love in each moment was to yield to the love of each moment. In
actuality there is nothing to look for, its already there, always,
we just fail to notice. So basically, dont look for the love in the
action of killing, it cant be found through reason or the mind. I
think we must first believe and know that the love is there, always
there/here/everywhere, and then we can slowly become more and more
aware of it in each moment. Infinite peace and blessings to you on
your journey!

Wm. Floyd
>

[nzwasp]

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "* Zia" <zia_19@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=hQECfzijd9UvkCmdF3iOhUW57fpuukOQDDFPgs ZeJ1Ee1gabchwLRXfd7KOyoC2JHsyw1ey1Vpc)>
>Thus the serial killer has simply made the choice to BE NOT LOVE, the mandate
of this universe, in order to >discover, and experience LOVE and make the FREE
WILL CHOICE to BE LOVE, and nothing else. Thus the >serial killer simply is the
extreme of NOT LOVE striving to awaken to LOVE. The serial killer offers itself
the >opportunity to see the intensity of its chosen BELIEF through actions or
experiences demonstrating NOT LOVE.

John: My friend defined that a 'wrong' action was one that did not lead to the
Creator - basically an action not done in/through Love. Would it be correct,
though, to say that no action is fundamentally wrong because of 1) free will,
and 2) those actions STILL lead you back towards the Infinite - towards Love?
But what if someone commiting an action of non-love never takes the catalyst
that can lead him to see this Love? In order for the action to lead you back to
Love you have to take that catalyst. If one never takes the catalyst, would
these actions still lead him to Love?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[jupitergirl63]

Divine love (not equated here with simply the emotion of love) is
accepting of both the beautiful AND the ugly....even a murderer.

Jan

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=-Pbsp--xyen3AE_sEgfo2zuLXIKHWd_9qmldJOFC_fHqZB3SY0wIfhbkT WOfEmL5D0mor3k_cpPIHPlp-PZE), "knowtheobscure" <knowtheobscure@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=-Pbsp--xyen3AE_sEgfo2zuLXIKHWd_9qmldJOFC_fHqZB3SY0wIfhbkT WOfEmL5D0mor3k_cpPIHPlp-PZE), "j_stubler" <j_stubler@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=-Pbsp--xyen3AE_sEgfo2zuLXIKHWd_9qmldJOFC_fHqZB3SY0wIfhbkT WOfEmL5D0mor3k_cpPIHPlp-PZE), cococube11@ wrote:
> > >
> > > It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with so far
> is
> > that those actions could possibly be done out of some level of
> love
> > for the self. My friend stated, though, that that would more so
be
> > love of the ego-self, not the true self which is beyond the ego.
> But
> > I'm not sure.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a bit of a
confusing
> > matter for me here :)
> > >
> > > Eternal Love,
> > > John

[* Zia]

John: My friend defined that a 'wrong' action was one that did not lead to
the
Creator - basically an action not done in/through Love. Would it be correct,
though, to say that no action is fundamentally wrong because of 1) free
will,
and 2) those actions STILL lead you back towards the Infinite - towards
Love?

ZIA: well 'wrong' takes the 'fun' out of fundamentally :) Perhaps it is as
simple as NOT LOVE is a choice given by free will, that ultimately HAS NO
EFFECTS. Actions/experiences are 'effects' that allow us to
see/feel/touch/taste/smell through our body senses. All thoughts have
'seeming' effects. All thoughts seem to MATTER. Literally. However, what
is NOT LOVE simply does not exist and cannot exist in the Mind of God,
because God is LIGHT/LOVE LOVE/LIGHT. No where in that equation do I see
NOT LOVE. We come in as LIGHT/LOVE and we are meant to return as
LOVE/LIGHT. Since you are not your body, and you do indeed go ON AFTER
LEAVING THE BODY completely, not just excursioning around 'out-of-body',
consider that what occurs in/to the body and its outpictured effects, simply
is not real. Yet perhaps the body is simply a creative tool for
understanding 'thoughts' of what is NOT LOVE. Simply that. Maybe it was
created specifically for that purpose and none other. Sort of just like we
create a doll to play with as a child (if you are feminine usually :) and
imbue it with 'live' attributes using our imagination. That doll is a tool
of understanding to the child. It also seems to get discarded when we
'think we've got it' or go on to greater learning tools :) My favorite
symbol for this is the ventriloquist with his 'dummy' :) The
ventriloquist's hand holding the dummy, is like our Soul connecting us to
Spirit that we are :)

As I understand the RA materials, the higher up the dimensions one goes, the
greater the LOVE, and in a sense NOT LOVE no longer exists at a certain
point. At the highest level before perhaps exiting this universe, the
crowning achievement one might say, is to have as LOVE, experienced NOT LOVE
and completed that by SEEING GOD (LOVE) IN ALL, the ONE IN ALL and ALL IN
ONE and ONLY THAT EXISTS.

So in viewing separate to our Self, what is NOT LOVE, and then becoming it,
we forgot we are Love, and have misidentified our SELF with the separated
NOT LOVE (the dummy telling the ventrilquist how stupid he is!). And thus
believe we could die with a body, that we believe dies. Yet we KNOW we are
NOT OUR BODY, especially through the dream state, and through out-of-body
experiences, and the ever increasing conscious/awareness of all that is.


JOHN: But what if someone commiting an action of non-love never takes the
catalyst
that can lead him to see this Love? In order for the action to lead you back
to
Love you have to take that catalyst. If one never takes the catalyst, would
these actions still lead him to Love?

ZIA:

Perhaps you have asked the question that we NEEDED TO ASK before we
undertook becoming NOT LOVE?!!!! Would we remember Love, would we choose to
remember that we are Love and only that? (We all would have said "Oh Yes!" I
am certain!) Imagine balancing the catalyst so that one does not simply
shut down and die, but once again, and rather awakens?!!!! Well most likely
we have no choice in 'taking the catalyst', because most do not remember
that they created their catalyst and their chosen life events in order to
awaken, before coming in, and the moment they reincarnate they forget who
and what they are. The 'catalyst' happens! Unless of course you awaken
before that major event, see the future and change your future (by creating
what you would prefer to experience :), since such a catalyst would no
longer be applicable or needed :) and of course catalyst can be
progressional too :)

Creating one's catalyst to awaken could be like an incredible mind maze, of
creating the catalyst surrounded by dead ends until you stay on the ONE
'right' path so to speak :) It's the choice we make when 'catalyst occurs'
that's vital, a choice that either leads to a dead end :) or we progress and
continue on a path of awakening and unfolding our true being. If we choose
the dead end, well we create another lifetime and catalyst-intensity that
awakens us rather than dead-ends us :)

So I would consider choice once you are here on 'taking or engaging
catalyst' only occurs if you have awakened, and once you engage the new path
fully awakened, you are the conscious creator of your destiny. THAT is the
important part, and exciting part, usually never attained in a lifetime and
so we keep repeating, re-incarnating, instead of never dying and creating
magnificent events/experiences that expand the Mind of God :) Consciously
creating life experiences filled with wonder and the profoundness of the
Mind of God that we can each individually experience, is BEING THE CREATOR
GOD, the LOVE we intended to become :) finding nothing literally in NOT
LOVE.

[Teresa Hunter]

I watched a documentary on serial killers recently (or some of it) and there is
a theory that most serial killers have 3 things in common: 1. They have had a
brain injury 2. They have had a mental illness and 3. They had childhoods in
which molestation/abuse were prevalent. What does this tell us about love?? I
have these same qualifying traits, but why am I not a serial killer? Possibly
it is about perceptions and choices, but they (serial killers) also serve as
catalysts do they not? Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but some things
we do not know yet and we cannot rationalize the source, just know that it is as
it should be.

In Love and Peace,
Teresa


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[Elmer]

There are two other things you have to add to that list of things serial
killers have in common. They are mostly white and almost exclusively male.

Not sure how to integrate that with this discussion concerning the LOO, but
it's still a huge part of the picture.

Elmer


Teresa Hunter <teresamh7@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=blWSrysQygzmNg7kATF3Qir92IyGwlJBp5CdPC LvOmL7Ahqrkg_l4AtMqRFi9AoFUnKLVH9zzJl8Uno)> wrote:
I watched a documentary on serial killers recently (or some of it) and there
is a theory that most serial killers have 3 things in common: 1. They have had
a brain injury 2. They have had a mental illness and 3. They had childhoods in
which molestation/abuse were prevalent. What does this tell us about love?? I
have these same qualifying traits, but why am I not a serial killer? Possibly
it is about perceptions and choices, but they (serial killers) also serve as
catalysts do they not? Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but some things
we do not know yet and we cannot rationalize the source, just know that it is
as it should be.

In Love and Peace,
Teresa


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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[Pi]

John wrote: It's a hard one, indeed, and all that I've come up with
so far is that those actions could possibly be done out of some
level of love for the self. My friend stated, though, that that
would more so be love of the ego-self, not the true self which is
beyond the ego. But I'm not sure.

Joe wrote: I am basing my reply on what I have read in the Law of
One. ALL is One --- and our experiences are, for lack of a better
word, called distortions. Someone please correct me if I am wrong
in this. So even the murderer would be experiencing "for" God. Not
only are those who LOVE part of God --- but so are those that DO NOT
love.

Wm Floyd wrote: I would have to agree with Joe here. Each experience
is for the Creator, even the most obscene and tragic. Love exists in
every moment, whether or not you are able to find it. Even the
serial killer "is" and is surrounded by love, it exists everywhere.
The actions of the serial killer are being interpreted through
distortions. From our perspective these killings may mean one thing,
but considering they exist, they are of love. I think where you are
going wrong in your seeking is that you are searching for something
thats so incredibly inherent to the situation, its easily missed.
Dont search for the concept of love, even if its the penultimate
universal super-duper concept of love, its going to fall short of
what love truly is.

Pi: BRAVO! i tried conveying this too, maybe with less clarity. The
assumptions used to "find the love in the moment" are inconsistent
with basic premises of the LoO. (a) In 3d, pure love can not be seen
or articulated (defined) or felt (experienced. (b) Love is in every
cell & in every nanosecond. (c) Service-to-self (STS) entities are
acting in accord with the LoO by & expressing love (of self). (d) We
only see & express & feel things that already exist within us.

Wm Floyd wrote: I think that what Ra meant when he said find the
love in each moment was to yield to the love of each moment. In
actuality there is nothing to look for, its already there, always,
we just fail to notice. So basically, dont look for the love in the
action of killing, it cant be found through reason or the mind. I
think we must first believe and know that the love is there, always
there/ here/ everywhere, and then we can slowly become more and more
aware of it in each moment.

Jan wrote: Divine love (not equated here with simply the emotion of
love) is accepting of both the beautiful AND the ugly....even a
murderer.

Pi: Here again, what's being said is precious. indeed , i was remiss
to previously suggest we look for love in the actions of the serial
killer, since this suggests that we can find that love outside us!
Of course. that's not so! What we see outside us is but a reflection
of what exists within. To be able to see it, we first must CHOOSE by
unconditional (AKA blind) faith to know that there's love in every
moment & in every thing. This is love of & for the Creator that we
have within. By our faith, we will become more & more aware of the
love that exists, & we will be aware of its existence on behalf of
both the victim & perpetrator. In all likelihood, we will come to
understand that murder is a reflection of fear and is an aspect of
STS activity, but that won't alter our awareness & acceptance of the
murder as an act of love of / for the Creator by the perpetrator. By
being aware of our love, we may release it without needing assurance
that our love will / will not be accepted or do any good / bad. Our
purpose is simply to love God by showing God's love. (In addition to
the LoO material, a major portion of the vision & i try to describe
above is in the Bible Old Testament Book of Deuteronomy chapter 30.

Peace & Love, pi

[Manuel erizaldo]

Joe wrote,

I am basing my reply on what I have read in the Law of One. ALL is
One --- and our experiences are, for lack of a better word, called
distortions. Someone please correct me if I am wrong in this. So
even the murderer would be experiencing "for" God. Not only are
those who LOVE part of God --- but so are those that DO NOT love.
Peace, Joe

I agree. Again, is it not, Fear is the opposite of Love not evil.

COMBINED this with ALL is ONE.

As such, someone is JUDGING others whether they are STO or STS but isn't that
also ALL is ONE????

Let's consider "distortions" as the necessary means to "experience" what we
cannot otherwise be able to in the perfect state.

More light and understanding to ALL
Manny



---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[M.W.]

Hi, guys.

I think that what must be kept in mind here is that both the STS and
the STO LOVE the creator. From the point of view of the Positive
polarity it is love and service to the creator in ALL that
distinquishes them, while in contrast it is the love of the creator
contained virtually within ONLY themselves that sparks the Negative
path ... which of course results in a form of self-absorption if not
self worship.

The catch 22 hitch for the negative path is that since the creator
within is only finite -- whereas the creator in the cosmic-all
approaches the infinite -- the negative STS runs out of "containment"
room in the early 6th; then he/she is driven to switch polarity. A
question asked concerned the difficulty an STS entity would encounter
at that late stage in trying to do a 180. The (surprising to me)
answer came back that, thanks to their powerful training of mind, it
was much easier to accomplish then -- at that advanced stage -- than
earlier on at some lower density.

A question that comes to mind is whether or not the STS path forms
huge social memory complexes such as found in The Ra -- who is made
up of a whole planet's worth of consciousnesses

Anyone have the answer to that one? inquiring mind's need to know.

the usual love and blessings! ...billybefuddled






--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=m1YLb_SlG4J4mxjaaXS2Jmel_pVn8CBlMH7WMH CobCIFCk6XhLYMshZVpfngZQyJ3xKrZkNE-XxyhuJ-), Manuel erizaldo <mannyallin@...> wrote:
>
> Joe wrote,
>
> I am basing my reply on what I have read in the Law of One. ALL
is
> One --- and our experiences are, for lack of a better word, called
> distortions. Someone please correct me if I am wrong in this. So
> even the murderer would be experiencing "for" God. Not only are
> those who LOVE part of God --- but so are those that DO NOT love.
> Peace, Joe
>
> I agree. Again, is it not, Fear is the opposite of Love not
evil.
>
> COMBINED this with ALL is ONE.
>
> As such, someone is JUDGING others whether they are STO or STS
but isn't that also ALL is ONE????
>
> Let's consider "distortions" as the necessary means
to "experience" what we cannot otherwise be able to in the perfect
state.
>
> More light and understanding to ALL
> Manny
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[charmer007@...>]

From Billy:
A question that comes to mind is whether or not the STS path forms huge social
memory complexes such as found in The Ra -- who is made up of a whole planet's
worth of consciousnesses

Me:
This is a good question Bill. My first instinct tells me that the STSers would
not form Social Memory complexes such as Ra. Ra tells us that it is a very
hierarchical society for STSers. This leads me to think of an every man for
himself mentality.

Although, I could see the possibility of small social memory complexes forming
in order to obtain temporary goals such as a switch in power. These might be
very short-lived as every STSer is out for himself and when opportunities for
'individuals' to gain more power for themselves arises, they would take it
breaking away from the group and creating disharmony.

It must take an extreme amount of focus and will to be part of a flourishing
social memory complex. Unless the goal is Unity at all times I could not see it
lasting. Also, I could see that the ability to read minds in 4D would severly
hinder any long-term social memory complexes among STSers. The archetypes
appear in many movies which depict a hierarchical society directed towards power
and control. One that comes to mind is the Society in 'the Chronicles of
Riddick' if u've ever seen it.
What does anyone else think?

Love and Light,

Michael S Toth II

[sandra pasquarella]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=gFeP_13F5xwjX4VOsb_SrroKDYHkHW-9CNKsNPD2jwJC2JziHTe3U-UtaxjEkZMq-YWzq0w7UVt2QI3r), Manuel erizaldo <mannyallin@...> wrote:
>
> Joe wrote,
>
> I am basing my reply on what I have read in the Law of One. ALL
is
> One --- and our experiences are, for lack of a better word, called
> distortions. Someone please correct me if I am wrong in this. So
> even the murderer would be experiencing "for" God. Not only are
> those who LOVE part of God --- but so are those that DO NOT love.
> Peace, Joe
>
> I agree. Again, is it not, Fear is the opposite of Love not
evil.
>
> COMBINED this with ALL is ONE.
>
> As such, someone is JUDGING others whether they are STO or STS
but isn't that also ALL is ONE????
>
> Let's consider "distortions" as the necessary means
to "experience" what we cannot otherwise be able to in the perfect
state.
>
> More light and understanding to ALL
> Manny
>
> Hi Joe

I'm new here and have been reading all the topics for the last few
weeks...your topic --- so even the murderer would be
experiencing "for" God. Not only are those who Love part of God---but
so are those who DO NOT Love. What keeps going through my mind is the
thought---That the Love and Light of God wants to bring Light to the
darkness.

Sandie
>
> ---------------------------------
> Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[nzwasp]

I've been thinking about what's been said on this topic as well as through my
own contemplation. I would like to thank you all, as I feel like I've come to a
better understanding of this whole issue - mainly being based around the issue
of what is called right and wrong.
The example we set this around was murder, which is generally called a 'wrong'
action because it is not of love. Could it be said, though, that - in the truest
sense - it is not 'wrong' because in the end it still leads you at some level to
the Creator - towards Love? Through free will one has a choice to commit actions
not of love or of love for the purpose of better understanding love. Likewise,
how can we understand the light if there is no dark? Both an action of Love or
Not Love serve a purpose in our awakening, since they can lead us to ask "Is
this what I really want?" for example. Both of an action of Love or Not Love are
valid ways to experience the Creator and progress towards Love.
So, does calling something 'right' or 'wrong' really even matter then if both
are equally valid? Perhaps realizing this - the purpose and validity of both
loving and not-loving actions - is a key to unconditional love and acceptance.
You would no longer have a preference/bias/disregard for one or the other.
Does this make sense to anyone else? If it doesn't seem right then please say
so...the purpose of this whole thing is to help us all to reach a better
understanding :)
Eternal Love
- John

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[jess9dob]

In a message dated 9/10/06 5:50:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
cococube11@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=RWukkUQWo3BkGP9TXqt0Q3D_A-6QZ62swKqfeIEGjAMw3g66qStsTNPjglEx5DklzHFoswrMQSjP ybvr) writes:

> So, does calling something 'right' or 'wrong' really even matter then if
both
> are equally valid? Perhaps realizing this - the purpose and validity of
both
> loving and not-loving actions - is a key to unconditional love and
acceptance.
> You would no longer have a preference/bias/disregard for one or the other.

I struggle with this greatly, and I hope it is OK (and not off topic) to
share my theory. In order to become as the gods and know good and evil, we must
do good and evil and experience the results. Therefore evil is necessary for
us to learn. But the goal of the experience is to learn WHY we want to say no
to evil (inside ourselves and from without) and yes to virtue, thus knowing
virtue to be preferable.

Does the Ra material speak of how we can come to know WHY we should choose
sharing over just taking without giving, or why choose service over selfishness?
Why is virtue preferable?

Agape,
Don Eli

[jpstephens2012]

Hello John,
I can't say I'm the best person to respond but in analysing your
reasoning you appear to be perfectly correct. The understanding of
love would not be possible without experiencing not love. This can
also be said about anything because it is the duality of nature,
whether it be called love/notlove, good/evil, yin/yang, or a multitude
of other opposite pairs. It is this duality of nature that actually
produces the driving force behind all activity and is just a
reflection of the deeper concept of the breath of God as it breathes
out and in. "As above, so below".

[strangeangels_9]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=8_p60I-LveKsvtIQ-sXNY61x2K3XKNVxNNxXuejyuZ7rSFiHy1AWRhGlcsW-04VXlqXhk5cfYI4rkRgLE5ra), "sandra pasquarella"
<spasquarella@...> wrote:

> >
> > Hi Joe
>
> I'm new here and have been reading all the topics for the last
few
> weeks...your topic --- so even the murderer would be
> experiencing "for" God. Not only are those who Love part of God---
but
> so are those who DO NOT Love. What keeps going through my mind is
the
> thought---That the Love and Light of God wants to bring Light to
the
> darkness.
>
> Sandie
> >
Hi Sandie,
I see you have found the wellspring on the Law of One!
Welcome.
God/Creator is all there is. This is the ONE.
Everything is for creator's experience. We have freewill to choose
the polarity we wish. Some will choose positive, some negative.
Polarities, distortions, light/dark are human created words
necessary at this level of awareness.
We/creator wished to experience all the possible infinite through
distortions. Those who do not have actions of love are still
creations of love/light. I think your word darkness is referring to
the negative polarity expression?
It is still creator experiencing self. :)
Strangeangel

[sandra pasquarella]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=UqBrwv3twQ6_Qw4Cuqd31dfdn8mzl9PZhUILBz nRGRWnEAjTVPdrpcdoBvZRTlYIr-XAnw0X82zO_Vpu3ds), "strangeangels_9" <deseeksus@...> wrote:
>
> --- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=UqBrwv3twQ6_Qw4Cuqd31dfdn8mzl9PZhUILBz nRGRWnEAjTVPdrpcdoBvZRTlYIr-XAnw0X82zO_Vpu3ds), "sandra pasquarella"
> <spasquarella@> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Hi Joe
> >
> > I'm new here and have been reading all the topics for the last
> few
> > weeks...your topic --- so even the murderer would be
> > experiencing "for" God. Not only are those who Love part of God---
> but
> > so are those who DO NOT Love. What keeps going through my mind is
> the
> > thought---That the Love and Light of God wants to bring Light to
> the
> > darkness.
> >
> > Sandie
> > >
> Hi Sandie,
> I see you have found the wellspring on the Law of One!
> Welcome.
> God/Creator is all there is. This is the ONE.
> Everything is for creator's experience. We have freewill to choose
> the polarity we wish. Some will choose positive, some negative.
> Polarities, distortions, light/dark are human created words
> necessary at this level of awareness.
> We/creator wished to experience all the possible infinite through
> distortions. Those who do not have actions of love are still
> creations of love/light. I think your word darkness is referring to
> the negative polarity expression?
> It is still creator experiencing self. :)
> Strangeangel
>
Hi Strangeangel

Yes...that is what I meant...negative polarity/darkness....
I was searching for an answer to explain the relationship between
good and evil as expressed in the above post...I think, the answer
rests in the very reason, or one of the possible reasons WHY the
universe was created to begin with...to bring Light/Love to the
darkness...

We all wonder WHY the universe was created....you feel it is for
creator to experience all the possible infinate through
distortions...this is one of
the possibilities....I try to look at the act of creation itself for
an answer...

[j_stubler]

> Hi Strangeangel
>
> Yes...that is what I meant...negative polarity/darkness....
> I was searching for an answer to explain the relationship between
> good and evil as expressed in the above post...I think, the answer
> rests in the very reason, or one of the possible reasons WHY the
> universe was created to begin with...to bring Light/Love to the
> darkness...
>
> (Joe) This is a very interesting discussion and the fact that you
are seeking and struggling for answers shows an awakening awareness.
But I have to disagree with your statement above. Based on the Ra
material, the universe was not created to bring light/love to
darkness. The universe was created by the ONE to experience itself.
And thus the light AND the darkness are all part of the ONE.

Peace,

Joe

[strangeangels_9]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=FV0cKbGG4pfCVrnpLHvz_5pUAOrNlVaNYVJTpG lBx6bQnHuVnmnUEWKsu56YSDkAz89QOL2OS3nlyZM), "j_stubler" <j_stubler@...> wrote:

> > (Joe) This is a very interesting discussion and the fact that you
> are seeking and struggling for answers shows an awakening
awareness.
> But I have to disagree with your statement above. Based on the Ra
> material, the universe was not created to bring light/love to
> darkness. The universe was created by the ONE to experience itself.
> And thus the light AND the darkness are all part of the ONE.
>
> Peace,
>
> Joe
>
I agree with Joe. And seeking answers is a sign of awakening.
If we ask WHY was the Universe created then we can see there would
have been no need for bringing light into the darkness (neg pole)had
the Universe never have been created to begin with.
The original state of creator had no light/dark, distortions or
physical universes.
Then creator wished to experience all the infinite possiblities of
self. So the universe you may call physical and all other densities
and levels of awareness were created.

I well understand the struggle awakening can be. Once at this point I
remember my varied feelings when a friend first started tweaking my
interest in the RA materials and Law of One.
I was up, down, interested yet still felt a defensive clinging to the
beliefs I was used to. It took some time for it to start activating
new awarenesses and some letting go of ego to allow myself to admit
there was another way to view creation and creator.
Happy seeking...
StrangeAngel

[sandra pasquarella]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=ePcsCsR5_MgTFKvbkebDdIDxrzHG4SdTMD5h6x E6vjyxC16sJ0s_XBUhn-p8LsDVKHdDkJtA_isftps), "strangeangels_9" <deseeksus@...> wrote:
>
> --- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=ePcsCsR5_MgTFKvbkebDdIDxrzHG4SdTMD5h6x E6vjyxC16sJ0s_XBUhn-p8LsDVKHdDkJtA_isftps), "j_stubler" <j_stubler@> wrote:
>
> > > (Joe) This is a very interesting discussion and the fact that
you
> > are seeking and struggling for answers shows an awakening
> awareness.
> > But I have to disagree with your statement above. Based on the
Ra
> > material, the universe was not created to bring light/love to
> > darkness. The universe was created by the ONE to experience
itself.
> > And thus the light AND the darkness are all part of the ONE.
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> > Joe
> >


> I agree with Joe. And seeking answers is a sign of awakening.
> If we ask WHY was the Universe created then we can see there would
> have been no need for bringing light into the darkness (neg pole)
had
> the Universe never have been created to begin with.
> The original state of creator had no light/dark, distortions or
> physical universes.
> Then creator wished to experience all the infinite possiblities of
> self. So the universe you may call physical and all other
densities
> and levels of awareness were created.
>
> I well understand the struggle awakening can be. Once at this
point I
> remember my varied feelings when a friend first started tweaking my
> interest in the RA materials and Law of One.
> I was up, down, interested yet still felt a defensive clinging to
the
> beliefs I was used to. It took some time for it to start
activating
> new awarenesses and some letting go of ego to allow myself to admit
> there was another way to view creation and creator.
> Happy seeking...
> StrangeAngel

>
Hi StrangeAngel...
Hi Joe... Thank you for your comments...I appreciate every source of
enlightenment and I am very much interested in the RA Material.
It is very difficult to awaken to so many different ideas and
possibilities.
What we all search for is the truth within the maze of life. I feel
that every time I ask a question and find an
answer...there are always more questions!
...StrangeAngel
stated that...the original state of the creator had no light/dark,
distortions or physical universes.....my question is.....was the
orginal state of God a void?
there has to be a 3d way to preceive of
God as creator ....all knowing/all Loving unconditionally..thinking
multi-dimentionally without the
concept of time and space?

sandie

[strangeangels_9]

> ...StrangeAngel .....my question is.....was the
> orginal state of God a void?
> there has to be a 3d way to preceive of
> God as creator ....all knowing/all Loving unconditionally..thinking
> multi-dimentionally without the
> concept of time and space?
>
> sandie
>
Hi again Sandie,
Not a void. Science once thought along those lines, but, not that
much anymore.
If you read some of the first basics in the RA material, God/Creator
was infinite conscious energy. You might think of this concept when
asking the original state of God/the creator. By no light/dark, I
mean the original neutral state of no polarities.
From that point, through freewill, love/creation were steps,(another
word that may be easier to relate to that RA calls distortions),so
creator could experience all of infinite self.
So you could from a 3D standpoint see how Creator went from that
original infinite energy through these steps of distortion to become
ALL.
Which also explains how ALL is ONE.
StrangeAngel