raconsel@...
09-21-2001, 04:11 PM
--- in asc2k@y..., r hunter <hunter13rj@y...> wrote:
> ron, thanks for the response to my post.
>
> it seems i have been a little lax in gettings my
> views across.. i am in agreement with you that pure
> intellectual pursuits is not the answer to
> enlightenment. however to say that one who studies
> purely intellectual pursuits will or cannot ascend i
> belive simply is not true. egotistical attachments to
> intellect is definately a stubling stone. is that not
> all we seem to be doing here. using our intellect to
> try to come to some sort of and understanding on the
> best path towards ascension.
right attitude comes from the heart, not from the mind. and it is only with
right attitude that one may seek and find the true path of return that leads to
ascension.
the intellect, so very limited as it is, should be utilised only to rationally
support one's own inner revelations and to communicate these to others in the
symbolic form of concepts. if the intellect is depended upon at all, if it is
looked to for finding truth, then it becomes the luciferic mind, able only to
perceive what is not of god. it becomes very luciferic if that same
intellect/mind is then used for spiritual purposes or to give out so-called
spiritual teachings. this is the path of black magic. the new age scene is
saturated with it.
<snip>
> there
> are as many paths to enlightenment as there are stars
> in the sky. to beleive that there is only one path
> shows spritual imaturity and naiveness.
there are many lesser paths of preparation for the embarkation upon the one true
path that leads to to god.
"if you would find the spirit life, the life of man in god, then you must walk a
narrow way and enter through a narrow gate. the way is christ, the gate is
christ, and you must come up by the way of christ. no man comes unto god but by
the christ. the paths of carnal life do not run up the mountain side towards the
top; they run around the mount of life, and if you go straight to the upper gate
of consciousness you cross the paths of carnal life; tread in them not." -
jesus.
the 'christ' spoken of here is divine love. and it is the only way that leads to
the mountain top of liberation. so there is only one path, but perhaps many
different expressions of that one path.
( i am not
> speaking of your self here)
> true there are some who are attached to many
> scientific facts as well as those who are attached to
> teaching of many who claimed to have the anserwers the
> sure path to being saved, to "enlightement" to "
> ascension" to " heaven" and those who are attached to
> material gain, my point is there are many who have
> attachments to many things. which in turn can cause
> "selfish use of them" but how does one persons
> attachment from an issue take away its usefullness of
> understanding, as a step towards "enlighemment"?
it does not. . . ultimately, because by learning from what is not true, one
eventually suffers so much that one is galvanized instead to seek what is true.
but such a painful and delayed journey home may be avoided, so much suffering
over countless incarnations may be obviated by wise choice now. (this is why you
are being called, now).
however, free will is divinely given and so must be honoured, up to a certain
point where it threatens the life of a planetary sphere (e.g., earth), and that
is when michael's sword comes down. "i come not to bring peace but the sword."
this is what ignorant humanity is actually waiting for on earth today.
the following summary might be called, 'the song of love and the war cry of
michael':
love is never imposing.
love is passive.
love sacrifices everything for the greater good.
just as it has done on earth cyclically for ages and ages and ages.
but there comes a time on a planet of darkness and at the cusp of an age, when
the logos wearies of the spreading cancer upon his planetary life, the cancer of
fear and selfishness; and he tires of sending his emissaries of love to
sacrifice themselves again and again and again, yet to no avail with regard to
the planetary life.
it is at this time that the logos withdraws his sacrificial love as an agent of
change and replaces it with will.
divine will is utterly imposing upon the cancer of evil and ignorance.
divine will is not passive.
divine will eradicates the darkness of fear and selfishness without asking, yet
also for the greater good.
just as it has done on earth cyclically for ages and ages and ages.
and divine will has no respect for the billions of human beings today who cling
to the ideal of love and peace for their own safety, salvation or other
misperceived ideas.
> if only one person gains one little sliver of
> understanding from it. it is all worth it. there is
> something that i always have to remind myself " just
> because something maybe clear and cut and dry to me,
> what comes easy to us does not always come easy to
> others. in turn what seems unclear and uncertain can
> be perfectly clear to others." so just because we find
> know use in a certain matters doesnt mean that others
> do not. and to call it wrong or incorrect is ego..
yes, it is so. but yet to look on and do or say nothing while a child proceeds
to endanger its life by not looking where it is going, is unloving, is it not?
anything that happens is not 'wrong' (even genocide). the fact that it can
happen means that god allows it to be. so how can it be wrong?
it is not 'wrong' to miss the grace of an age such as that which you are being
called (invited) to receive at this time, but it is very spiritually painful,
and maybe unwise, too!
> [nothing great can
> > happen to us if we depend upon our intellect because
> > all that is great is beyond the intellect. this was
> > the essence of my point made to david about the need
> > to give up his very limited intellectual attachments
> > to 'scientific proof' if he wants to be free of
> > bondage and to ascend. ]
>
> the need for david to use intellect or"attachments to
> scientific proof" is also a means to and end. david
> himself does not need scientfic proof. or to use his
> intellect. he does this for the benifit of providing
> a catlyst for those who cannot see past the vail, to
> break the barriers in there intellect to hopefully
> awaken the aspect of self who asks the questions on
> the meaning and purpose of life. i am in full
> agreement that you may have no use for this
> information or its intent. but to take an
> intellectual approach and say that david has to give
> up this "attachment" [in order to ascend] is very shortcoming.
it is also the truth.
> [the intellect of man cannot know god. ] if this is
> true then how can you state that david needs to give
> up this scientific attachment and exspect to have any
> validity to what you said , for this statement to be
> true you would have to be using a means other than
> your intellect to bring across your points here. so
> how can you know that these scientific attachments are
> are a waste of time> unless you yourself are a
> "fully enlightend being"
it takes one to know one. good questions, but the answer lies beyond your
intellect.
> it is a simple and earnest challenge, yet most
> > people in their attachments to what they 'think'
> > they know (and their fear of that which they do not
> > know) do not pick up the gauntlet in the right way
>
>
> how does it serve you to write such things?
i do not wish to be served.
it serves god by revealing a simple truth of human nature (fear/ignorance). by
shining a light into darkness we may better deal with it, even transmute it to
something better.
> you perceive inaction as a fear. because one does not
> accept your challenge.
no. i seek to expose the fear that re-acts to the simple truth in separation,
and therefore offer opportunity for realization and healing. the above gauntlet
example was referring to an unecessary conflict (separative attitude)
demonstrated by another person on this list to my earnest offer.
>truth - you dont have to know
> anything knowing is of the intellect. you have to be
> something . what ever that is.
>
> so let's take an objective,
> > intelligent look at what is being said". this is the
> > lot of the ego-self that seeks to preserve itself by
> > not letting go of all intellectual illusions,
> > including the scientific ones. we must let go of the
> > raft in order to actually get off on the other
> > shore. until we do that, and so just love, have
> > faith in and so trust god, we are not going to
> > ascend.
>
> we do not ascend in thought .we ascend in action. to
> just let go and trust in god. you will be a person
> who walks around trusting in god to do all the work
> for you. " it is gods plan right?"
the vital key is to allow or permit god to act through us, not to act on his
behalf. the latter creates karma and suffering because it is not true action.
> therefore we can
> > infer that the unholy (ignorant) use of the
> > intellect is actually a distraction from the path of
> > god-realization, and so is karma-producing. i think
> > this is why the buddha prescribed meditation or
> > 'fasting of the intellectual apparatus', in order to
> > stop thinking and so cease producing more illusions
>
>
> ( the use of the intellect as a path toward
> enlightenment is still a path)
it is a false path along which lie many pits and snares. eventually such a path
leads to terrible darkness and misery and has to be given up in order to walk
the true path, the way of return. every single fallen soul must ultimately find
and walk this path, the path of no-mind.
>simply because we are
> not aware of an individual who has become enlightend
> by intellectual pursuits does not make the path less
> valid.
there has never been one who attained the goal via intellectual pursuits and
there never will be. even the paths of zen and gnana yoga seek to break the
mind, to come to realize its illusory nature by reaching the ceiling of the
feeble intellect and so be able to give it up completely in order to know god.
>and the basis that all of your points here
> stand on is " the assumption that david and others are
> teaching using the intelltual mind" this information
> has come in much the same manner as it has come thru
> other prophets and saints and enlightend masters.
it's a vibration, r. read with your heart, not just your intellect, and you will
see.
"if you would see into your brother's heart, first purify your own."
> your inability to grasp its potential usefullness does
> not take away from its use to others. that being said
> let me be clear, it is refreshing to see someone who
> has a clear understanding of there path. as not many
> do. you can and will be an asset to many who are on
> a path similar to yours. as we are all on the same
> journey, we are not all on the same boat. :)
yes, it is so. but if we were all rowing in unison towards the same destination
in the same boat just think of how much faster and more merrily we would reach
the other shore. . .
in order to row our boat effectively toward the other shore - singularly or in
unity - we require to use a valid map. we need gnosis.
> i respect you abilty to be what you believe> as many
> find this to be a daunting task.
>
> we are all very limited in our knowledge of life. but
> to try to put our perspective out above others is self
> limiting. as i may not concure with your points or
> beliefs does not mean i hold them less valid.
while you may believe that you are limited in knowledge, r, god is not so
limited. and so in placing my faith and self in god, neither am i.
> peace be with you.
not until you are home and safe, r.
:-)
> ron, thanks for the response to my post.
>
> it seems i have been a little lax in gettings my
> views across.. i am in agreement with you that pure
> intellectual pursuits is not the answer to
> enlightenment. however to say that one who studies
> purely intellectual pursuits will or cannot ascend i
> belive simply is not true. egotistical attachments to
> intellect is definately a stubling stone. is that not
> all we seem to be doing here. using our intellect to
> try to come to some sort of and understanding on the
> best path towards ascension.
right attitude comes from the heart, not from the mind. and it is only with
right attitude that one may seek and find the true path of return that leads to
ascension.
the intellect, so very limited as it is, should be utilised only to rationally
support one's own inner revelations and to communicate these to others in the
symbolic form of concepts. if the intellect is depended upon at all, if it is
looked to for finding truth, then it becomes the luciferic mind, able only to
perceive what is not of god. it becomes very luciferic if that same
intellect/mind is then used for spiritual purposes or to give out so-called
spiritual teachings. this is the path of black magic. the new age scene is
saturated with it.
<snip>
> there
> are as many paths to enlightenment as there are stars
> in the sky. to beleive that there is only one path
> shows spritual imaturity and naiveness.
there are many lesser paths of preparation for the embarkation upon the one true
path that leads to to god.
"if you would find the spirit life, the life of man in god, then you must walk a
narrow way and enter through a narrow gate. the way is christ, the gate is
christ, and you must come up by the way of christ. no man comes unto god but by
the christ. the paths of carnal life do not run up the mountain side towards the
top; they run around the mount of life, and if you go straight to the upper gate
of consciousness you cross the paths of carnal life; tread in them not." -
jesus.
the 'christ' spoken of here is divine love. and it is the only way that leads to
the mountain top of liberation. so there is only one path, but perhaps many
different expressions of that one path.
( i am not
> speaking of your self here)
> true there are some who are attached to many
> scientific facts as well as those who are attached to
> teaching of many who claimed to have the anserwers the
> sure path to being saved, to "enlightement" to "
> ascension" to " heaven" and those who are attached to
> material gain, my point is there are many who have
> attachments to many things. which in turn can cause
> "selfish use of them" but how does one persons
> attachment from an issue take away its usefullness of
> understanding, as a step towards "enlighemment"?
it does not. . . ultimately, because by learning from what is not true, one
eventually suffers so much that one is galvanized instead to seek what is true.
but such a painful and delayed journey home may be avoided, so much suffering
over countless incarnations may be obviated by wise choice now. (this is why you
are being called, now).
however, free will is divinely given and so must be honoured, up to a certain
point where it threatens the life of a planetary sphere (e.g., earth), and that
is when michael's sword comes down. "i come not to bring peace but the sword."
this is what ignorant humanity is actually waiting for on earth today.
the following summary might be called, 'the song of love and the war cry of
michael':
love is never imposing.
love is passive.
love sacrifices everything for the greater good.
just as it has done on earth cyclically for ages and ages and ages.
but there comes a time on a planet of darkness and at the cusp of an age, when
the logos wearies of the spreading cancer upon his planetary life, the cancer of
fear and selfishness; and he tires of sending his emissaries of love to
sacrifice themselves again and again and again, yet to no avail with regard to
the planetary life.
it is at this time that the logos withdraws his sacrificial love as an agent of
change and replaces it with will.
divine will is utterly imposing upon the cancer of evil and ignorance.
divine will is not passive.
divine will eradicates the darkness of fear and selfishness without asking, yet
also for the greater good.
just as it has done on earth cyclically for ages and ages and ages.
and divine will has no respect for the billions of human beings today who cling
to the ideal of love and peace for their own safety, salvation or other
misperceived ideas.
> if only one person gains one little sliver of
> understanding from it. it is all worth it. there is
> something that i always have to remind myself " just
> because something maybe clear and cut and dry to me,
> what comes easy to us does not always come easy to
> others. in turn what seems unclear and uncertain can
> be perfectly clear to others." so just because we find
> know use in a certain matters doesnt mean that others
> do not. and to call it wrong or incorrect is ego..
yes, it is so. but yet to look on and do or say nothing while a child proceeds
to endanger its life by not looking where it is going, is unloving, is it not?
anything that happens is not 'wrong' (even genocide). the fact that it can
happen means that god allows it to be. so how can it be wrong?
it is not 'wrong' to miss the grace of an age such as that which you are being
called (invited) to receive at this time, but it is very spiritually painful,
and maybe unwise, too!
> [nothing great can
> > happen to us if we depend upon our intellect because
> > all that is great is beyond the intellect. this was
> > the essence of my point made to david about the need
> > to give up his very limited intellectual attachments
> > to 'scientific proof' if he wants to be free of
> > bondage and to ascend. ]
>
> the need for david to use intellect or"attachments to
> scientific proof" is also a means to and end. david
> himself does not need scientfic proof. or to use his
> intellect. he does this for the benifit of providing
> a catlyst for those who cannot see past the vail, to
> break the barriers in there intellect to hopefully
> awaken the aspect of self who asks the questions on
> the meaning and purpose of life. i am in full
> agreement that you may have no use for this
> information or its intent. but to take an
> intellectual approach and say that david has to give
> up this "attachment" [in order to ascend] is very shortcoming.
it is also the truth.
> [the intellect of man cannot know god. ] if this is
> true then how can you state that david needs to give
> up this scientific attachment and exspect to have any
> validity to what you said , for this statement to be
> true you would have to be using a means other than
> your intellect to bring across your points here. so
> how can you know that these scientific attachments are
> are a waste of time> unless you yourself are a
> "fully enlightend being"
it takes one to know one. good questions, but the answer lies beyond your
intellect.
> it is a simple and earnest challenge, yet most
> > people in their attachments to what they 'think'
> > they know (and their fear of that which they do not
> > know) do not pick up the gauntlet in the right way
>
>
> how does it serve you to write such things?
i do not wish to be served.
it serves god by revealing a simple truth of human nature (fear/ignorance). by
shining a light into darkness we may better deal with it, even transmute it to
something better.
> you perceive inaction as a fear. because one does not
> accept your challenge.
no. i seek to expose the fear that re-acts to the simple truth in separation,
and therefore offer opportunity for realization and healing. the above gauntlet
example was referring to an unecessary conflict (separative attitude)
demonstrated by another person on this list to my earnest offer.
>truth - you dont have to know
> anything knowing is of the intellect. you have to be
> something . what ever that is.
>
> so let's take an objective,
> > intelligent look at what is being said". this is the
> > lot of the ego-self that seeks to preserve itself by
> > not letting go of all intellectual illusions,
> > including the scientific ones. we must let go of the
> > raft in order to actually get off on the other
> > shore. until we do that, and so just love, have
> > faith in and so trust god, we are not going to
> > ascend.
>
> we do not ascend in thought .we ascend in action. to
> just let go and trust in god. you will be a person
> who walks around trusting in god to do all the work
> for you. " it is gods plan right?"
the vital key is to allow or permit god to act through us, not to act on his
behalf. the latter creates karma and suffering because it is not true action.
> therefore we can
> > infer that the unholy (ignorant) use of the
> > intellect is actually a distraction from the path of
> > god-realization, and so is karma-producing. i think
> > this is why the buddha prescribed meditation or
> > 'fasting of the intellectual apparatus', in order to
> > stop thinking and so cease producing more illusions
>
>
> ( the use of the intellect as a path toward
> enlightenment is still a path)
it is a false path along which lie many pits and snares. eventually such a path
leads to terrible darkness and misery and has to be given up in order to walk
the true path, the way of return. every single fallen soul must ultimately find
and walk this path, the path of no-mind.
>simply because we are
> not aware of an individual who has become enlightend
> by intellectual pursuits does not make the path less
> valid.
there has never been one who attained the goal via intellectual pursuits and
there never will be. even the paths of zen and gnana yoga seek to break the
mind, to come to realize its illusory nature by reaching the ceiling of the
feeble intellect and so be able to give it up completely in order to know god.
>and the basis that all of your points here
> stand on is " the assumption that david and others are
> teaching using the intelltual mind" this information
> has come in much the same manner as it has come thru
> other prophets and saints and enlightend masters.
it's a vibration, r. read with your heart, not just your intellect, and you will
see.
"if you would see into your brother's heart, first purify your own."
> your inability to grasp its potential usefullness does
> not take away from its use to others. that being said
> let me be clear, it is refreshing to see someone who
> has a clear understanding of there path. as not many
> do. you can and will be an asset to many who are on
> a path similar to yours. as we are all on the same
> journey, we are not all on the same boat. :)
yes, it is so. but if we were all rowing in unison towards the same destination
in the same boat just think of how much faster and more merrily we would reach
the other shore. . .
in order to row our boat effectively toward the other shore - singularly or in
unity - we require to use a valid map. we need gnosis.
> i respect you abilty to be what you believe> as many
> find this to be a daunting task.
>
> we are all very limited in our knowledge of life. but
> to try to put our perspective out above others is self
> limiting. as i may not concure with your points or
> beliefs does not mean i hold them less valid.
while you may believe that you are limited in knowledge, r, god is not so
limited. and so in placing my faith and self in god, neither am i.
> peace be with you.
not until you are home and safe, r.
:-)