questions about free will

[Michael Bergman]

Hello everyone,

What follows are some recent ponderings of mine, opinions are welcome :)

"In your illusion of physical existence all experience springs from the Law
of Free will or the Way of Confusion. In another sense, which we are
learning, the experiences are this distortion." Ra

Does this statement mean that to have any experience at all is a distortion
of free will? The reason why I ask is that I have been wondering if it is
really possible to have an experience of true oneness? Can unity ever be
known, doesn't oneness imply the unknown? To have any type of experience
seems to imply at least some sort of separation which creates a duailty
between the experiencer and the experience, between the subject and the
object, or between the absolute and the relative. I guess that is why it is
called a mystery because I don't know. in fact, I think the entire human
conditiion can be wrapped up in a shrug.

The way I understand it is that the only way the Creator can
experience/recognize Itself or gain knowledge of Itself is through the
concept of manyness or finity. During the exploration through manyness the
Creator becomes as individualized/separate as possible and from that
relative viewpoint of separation (which is where we are) we discern the
concept of absolute oneness/unity which starts the whole journey back to the
source. Actually oneness doesn't even seem like the goal of creation but
instead to get as close to oneness as possible without actually dissolving
completely so that the Creator can still gather experience and knowledge.
That is why words cannot even begin to touch 7th density for that is where
you actually meet the Creator, merging your presence into your absense and
become one.

Is being beyond experience? Is the timelessness before infinity becomes
aware also conceptless? Imagine life without concepts, now that would be
innocence indeed.

peace,
Mikey

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[Steve & Jennifer]

Hey, Mikey ~

I used to spend many a sleepless night amidst similar ponderings -
trying to imagine only pure consciousness in and of itself without
any sort of subject-object split. But since imagination is thought
and thought requires at least two points of reference, for instance,
"this" and something other than "this", I found that I was still
playing within the realm of separateness! It became apparent that
some sort of analogous concept would be about as close to perceiving
singular consciousness as I could ever hope to get... but what?

Then one day during a discussion as to the nature of reality as we
humans perceive it, the other person stated, rather sphomorically,
that the only "reality" he accepted was that which his five physical
senses relayed to him. Suddenly, that analogy I was searching for
occurred to me! (I also felt the urgent need to leave!) But first, I
suggested that he try to imagine hypothetically being born WITHOUT
any of his five senses intact. From a personal point of view, then,
would ANYTHING other than his own consciousness exist? In other
words, even though the rest of creation would be be-bopping merrily
along, HE would be completely unaware of its very existence - even
if his body were being constantly buffeted about by it. He would, in
a sense, be all that is, and having absolutely no point of reference
and, therefore, no thoughts, his only awareness would be that of his
own undefined "is-ness". Later I thought, could that analogy be
applied to Prime Creator? And if so, what would have triggered Its
own Self-realization and the desire to know Itself through the
illusion of "other" infinite points of reference?

At that point the great mystery continues as it all gets, as you
suggested, way too nebulous and slippery for any sort of meaningful
articulation... plus, my head starts to hurt! :o)

~ Steve

[Lesley Schultz]

Dear Mickey, and Zee, L/L & Peace to All:

--- Michael Bergman <bergmanmichael@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=Tb2zwnUcwVqYbFOWYJG6a22pU47JRVodDVHYkn IYi5VnhV5LvO55D77cI5SlT3pvreJifVZlc4PuUVEu3jzc)> wrote:

>>snip>> Does this statement mean that to have any
experience at all is a distortion of free will?
<<snip>> Actually oneness doesn't even seem like the
goal of creation but instead to get as close to
oneness as possible without actually dissolving
completely so that the Creator can still gather
experience and knowledge. That is why words cannot
even begin to touch 7th density for that is where you
actually meet the Creator, merging your presence into
your absense and become one.
>
Is being beyond experience? Is the timelessness
before infinity becomes aware also conceptless?

Zee writes:

<<<snip>>> Space and Time, together grants us a
delay in consequences that grants us free will. It is
like a quaratine to keep us from making too great a
mess, while we learn to choose, learn how to create.

LS: I meant to respond to Zee's excellent post, and
then yours came up, Mickey, which is bringing up some
related points. Good job, boys! I was also thinking
of Zee's comment on space and time granting us a delay
in consequences, and what this has to do with Karma.
For every action, we learned in school, there is an
equal and opposite reaction. You don't have to wait
for it. Karma, then, should be created instantly when
an action is taken. But, as most of us know from
common experience, that while what goes around comes
around, it doesn't always come around quickly.
Sometimes we never see it in this lifetime. On the
other hand, our hand can indeed get smacked
immediately after removing the cookie from the jar.

It would seem that there is almost a randomness in the
speed at which consequences or karma or experience is
created.

But, as we've most of us read DW's work and sniffed
around other sources of information for a while, we
know that this really isn't randomness. We can
account for some delays in reaction to things like the
forgiveness, of both self and otherself, which can
delay or even eliminate reactivity. We can also
account for what seem like delays in reaction to
things like intention. Also, what looks like karmic
reaction might be preincarnative agreed-upon catalyst,
to guide experience and action, which is different.

The Creator indeed is seeking to know Itself through
the exploration of manyness and finity, and the goal
of seeking oneness in those arriving at third density
and beyond does seem like a counterproductive goal.
However, it is the conundrum of the ONE being all that
there is, and there is nothing that is not ONE, or a
part of the ONE, for it to be seeking. The closest
thing that the ONE can create for Itself that is not
simply an adjunct to Itself is to have Experience.
Something happens to the ONE, which it creates, but
does not predict. The restraint from the action of
predicting is what we call free will. Intention and
forgiveness are acts of restraint, which have tne
effect of expanding free will.

The free will, then, of the ONE is an action that
removes energy from the energy system of
action/reaction. Forgive someone, or yourself, and
you remove energy from karmic systems that might be
generating reaction coming towards you. Resentment,
worry, fear, anger- all of them feed the karmic
engines of action/reaction and interfere with the free
will resting state, which is lower energy. It is a
natural law that all things seek their lowest energy
states, conserving matter, motion and energy.

Now Mickey, your question of timeless and what it
means for free will and seeking the Oneness is a
really interesting one. I imagine timelessness is
like the joining of ultimate potentiality and ultimate
expression of energy potential at the same moment. All
things are possible and all things are expressing
their possibility. There is no Thought and there is
no Intention but there is infinite Being. If one
combines this idea with Zee's expression of time and
space providing a buffer zone for the exercise of free
will, then when you have ONEness you have
time/space/being occupying the same location, in the
lowest-possible-energy-zone, which we're calling free
will- and this is the highest potential energy
mechanism, allowing infinite expression.
Time/Space/Being provides the engine.

Clear as mud?

~lesley







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[amilius2001]

Might the answers you seek be found in these questions:
What if all energy is conscious?
What if all energy is conscious of being One Being?
What if the only thing indidvidual about any one of us is our
individual unawareness of being One Being?
What if experience is the purpose of playing with separation
inspired notions of unawareness?
What if energy at rest is the great know-thing, Om-ni-science?
What if 'void' is the volume of information?
I once asked during meditation in what context might two
seemingly mutually exclusive events, predestination and free
will, exist simultaneously? This was the answer I received, "The
only thing predestined by the Universe is Absolute Joy. We all
have the Free Will to avoid it."
We are all One. Rather than thinking in terms of how to get back
to Unity, might One think in terms of what one might choose to
imagine to get us where we are today?
These questions are clues to a puzzle of which we are all a part.
Puzzles are for playing with to pass time. All puzzles are
Graciously Organized Design. Ra, Q'uo, and others understand
this as so might we. Find your Self in the puzzle about you.
Namaste.

[smileyjaiy]

As a response.....and in friendly musing only :)

> Then one day during a discussion as to the nature of reality as we
> From a personal point of view, then,
> would ANYTHING other than his own consciousness exist?

as limited as an intellect is to fanthom that which is infinite I
find the manner in which you just described a good way to explain to those
who have not 'transcended' their thinking yet to full consciousness

> In other
> words, even though the rest of creation would be be-bopping merrily
> along, HE would be completely unaware of its very existence - even
> if his body were being constantly buffeted about by it.

HE as in terms of the instrument of that particular body? - yes if
that bodies senses were denied but no if 'HE' is that consciousness
is what is witnissing what the body is witnessing since that 'HE' is
witness from within all instruments of experience whether sentient
humans or piece of rock - 'HE' is fully consciouss.

> He would, in a sense, be all that is, and having absolutely no point of
reference and, therefore, no thoughts, his only awareness would be that of
his own undefined "is-ness".

and all thoughts of all things since 'HE' is within and without all
things

Later I thought, could that analogy be
> applied to Prime Creator?

Is the idea of Prime Creator nothing more than the insistence of
seperateness, if all things are but within and without, always has
been and always will be then it is self-evident that there is no
Prime Creator at all?

> And if so, what would have triggered Its
> own Self-realization

It - 'He' has always been Self-realization, it has never stopped

> and the desire to know Itself through the
> illusion of "other" infinite points of reference?
>

Being infinite - It 'He' cannot deny itself all possibilities
including the illusion of forgeting itself or being limited or
stopping 'His' Self-realization

> At that point the great mystery continues as it all gets, as you
> suggested, way too nebulous and slippery for any sort of meaningful
> articulation... plus, my head starts to hurt! :o)
>
> ~ Steve

I've explored that possibility too.......so true - Jaiyson

[JDS]

Mikey,
I hear what you are saying about it seeming that oneness doesn't seem like
the goal of the creator until 8th density. It seems the creator needs us to be
experiencing as much as possible before coming back to the oneness. If it was
achieved quickly, would that make our contribution to the great pool of
experience that much less?
On a separate note, I believe Ra speaks of the need for food substances in
4th, 5th, and 6th density. This seems to me like the need of a body. Am I to
assume that in the higher densitys that we are still carnating into physical
bodies? If this is so does anyone knows if 4th density requires the veil of
forgetting? For some reason, I want to believe that these are 3rd density
concepts and are no longer necessary in 4th density and beyond. Please give
insight into how you interpret Ra's message in this case. If there is the veil
of forgetting in the 4th density, at what point does a soul graduate from the
necessity of the veil? Is it denoted by a density shift or a personal one? I
am under the impression that incarnating and the veil go hand in hand and the
only reason we incarnate in the first place is to take advantage of the veil
because we can't in the spirit world. Any Insights are appreciated.

~Mike



The way I understand it is that the only way the Creator can
experience/recognize Itself or gain knowledge of Itself is through the
concept of manyness or finity. During the exploration through manyness the
Creator becomes as individualized/separate as possible and from that
relative viewpoint of separation (which is where we are) we discern the
concept of absolute oneness/unity which starts the whole journey back to the
source. Actually oneness doesn't even seem like the goal of creation but
instead to get as close to oneness as possible without actually dissolving
completely so that the Creator can still gather experience and knowledge.
That is why words cannot even begin to touch 7th density for that is where
you actually meet the Creator, merging your presence into your absense and
become one.

[NEIL HADDON]

Wow! this question has brought out the big guns -
and thanks to all of them for expanding our
considerations.
Just one suggestion. Although he does not quote
his source, Amilius wrote that he received the
answer in meditation:
> "The
> only thing predestined by the Universe is
Absolute Joy. We all
> have the Free Will to avoid it."

At risk of upsetting superior authority, might it
not be more accurate to say, " We all have the
Free Will to *delay*(the enjoyment of) it" ?

The Universe/Creator/Supreme Being/Oneness has
infinite patience, Karma and catalyst are both in
place to lead us to the optimum conclusion
eventually: we have the choice as to how long it
takes for us to get the point.

Love.
Neil

[amilius2001]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=nu7Ugo5qYrWr7ywFL5Sj0oG3HeGEHszrT5ElZF BJUtk4kyUbS7qIH3BFQmM7uQEnzTr5ERXmnB8zhscT7Z4), "NEIL HADDON"
<wayshower@t...> wrote:
, Amilius wrote that he received the
> answer in meditation:
> > "The
> > only thing predestined by the Universe is
> Absolute Joy. We all
> > have the Free Will to avoid it."
>
> At risk of upsetting superior authority, might it
> not be more accurate to say, " We all have the
> Free Will to *delay*(the enjoyment of) it" ?
>
> The Universe/Creator/Supreme Being/Oneness has
> infinite patience, Karma and catalyst are both in
> place to lead us to the optimum conclusion
> eventually: we have the choice as to how long it
> takes for us to get the point.

Neil, do you still imagine the Source gets upset with offspring
playing with the toys one's been presented? As for playing with
Patience through choices of Karma and Catalyst, what if
appreciation of the experience One has designed for One's Self
on the roller coaster of an individual life is the only question of
Will? Will I appreciate the circumstances I have chosen for
myself? Will I be aware that I chose them? Might All of Creation
exist for a purpose and a benefit that may be reconciled rather
than denied? I use an acronym for Karma: Knowing
Appreciation, Realize Manifest Awareness. There is only Good
KARMA. Might appreciating Love Inspired Flowing Experiences,
LIFE, in the circumstances of One's choosing support increased
awareness about how One influences the in-forming of One's
next experience? Remember the line, "It is good."? Might the
Separation Inspired Notion be the denial of Benefit in
circumstances as presented? I observe many often overlook the
beneficial experience to be appreciated in opportunities that are
challenges. We are all ways present with Graciously Organized
Design. The Separation Inspired Notion of "delay" suggests
playing with the luxury of time away from where we already are.
Might there be 'know getting to where One already is" which may
be perceived as the luxury of time with appreciation? Might the
Luxury Of Time for Manifestation Appreciates Now be the LOT of
MAN? Might one just avoid appreciating it with a shift in focus?
It's occurred to me that even speaking of patience implies an
overlooked awareness that time is a luxury for appreciation in the
unfolding of experience. This is how I appreciate the Lot of Man
playing with concepts of separation and karma in the Graciously
Arranged Manifest Expression of Love Inspired Flowing
Experience within the Realization of Graciously Organized
Designed: Please Love Allowing Yourself Graciously Organized
Design, PLAY GOD. Neil, might one see that Ra and Q'uo are
amazed that offspring of the Source seem to avoid playing like
their Source? We are all One. Might One play with appreciating
it? Namaste, Amilius