Is killing compatible with the Law of One?

[grantcleveland]

Hi All,

I was originally going to post this as a poll but I didn't know how
to correctly format it.

Do you think that killing is compatible with the Law of One?

No, killing is not beneficial under any circumstances.

Yes, killing is OK as self defense for your own life.

Yes, killing is OK for defense of another's life.

Yes, killing is OK if it was unintentional.

Yes, killing is OK if the entity will be used for sustenance.

Yes, killing is OK if the entity will be used for sustenance and is
of a lower density.

Yes, killing is OK if the entity will be used for sustenance, is of
a lower density, and love/light energy is projected to the victim or
victim's group soul.

I'm experiencing a major dilemma right now. I've hunted and fished
all my life and I have always used the meat to feed my family and
me. I've done this with (perceived) respect to the animal and
environment but I've had some experiences that make me believe that
intentional killing might be wrong under any circumstances. I cannot
decide if we have the capacity to follow through with this noble
idea in our current 3D environment. Being human, there really is no
way to avoid killing. This includes the bacteria on our bodies.
Where can we and should we draw the line? If any of you are not
vegetarians do you think about this when you purchase that steak at
the market? Can I lovingly kill an animal?

Last year I went deer hunting with mixed emotions about the whole
experience. Going there I didn't really know if I wanted or would go
through with a kill. My main purpose was to get some much needed
meat for my family but I would have been happy just sitting in the
woods and merging with nature for a week.
On opening day I had just eaten lunch and sat on the ground to take
a quick nap. It was strange. To this day I still think I was given
some kind of test by some higher source. But I sensed a presence or
a slight noise and I woke up. When I picked up my head there was a
small lone buck standing broad side at relatively close range in
front of me (A young animal and a rare perfect shot.) As anyone who
hunts knows, when that type of situation occurrs you really don't
have alot of time to think and you really shouldn't hesitate because
you may not get another shot and go home empty handed.
I took the shot and his life. At first I felt like I had just failed
a critical test that was just presented to me. I actually felt like
I let myself, the deer and the universe down. Did I just create
negative karmaand rob the universe of a beautiful creature? After
some thought I decided to make the best out of the situation and
started beaming love/light and thanks to the deer and the creator.
After some time my sorrow was remarkably transformed. I felt a
loving, warm appreciation and a certain rightness about the giving
of a life and the blood on my hands. I felt the deer and the creator
were happy to give this life for the sake of me and my family.
Everything was good and right. I even shed a couple tears for the
beauty of the situation. I think of this every time my wife cooks
dinner with this meat.
Deer season is fast approaching here in Michigan and I have to make
a decision. Was the rightness that I experienced real or was it my
conscious mind attempting to justify a shelfish act?
Any thoughts to help me make a decision are greatly appreciated.

Love Grant

[GenoNess1@...]

In a message dated 11/1/2004 3:13:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
grant_a_cleveland@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=j6_J7LAkGqZ7kL1IAIEoaYR4EYdxajMKeCoToF vHai2Q8UjD_CZJJi9F1cCcI9we02RCeJ7TPCeGAixkE_3MXIAc ) writes:
Was the rightness that I experienced real or was it my
conscious mind attempting to justify a shelfish act?
Any thoughts to help me make a decision are greatly appreciated.

Love Grant


Anything and everything is compatible with the law of one. That's kind of the
nature of the whole concept - it is all encompassing. all is One. I cant tell
you whether or not the
'rightness' you experienced was real, because frankly taht is for YOU to
decide. its not like its a set yes or no thing. you are in control. its your
intention that is important. and in the end even if your intention is twisted
and
'evil' such things are still ACCEPTED in the law of One and in fact EMBRACED
with all the love in existence (ideally speaking). hope this makes sense to you!
Love, Kyle!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[fran.vincent@...>]

Grantclevland wrote, 11/1/04: Questions on whether or not killing is
OK and when and to whom?

Fran writes: These are questions that only each one of us should
answer for ourselves. Each circumstance has a different outcome.

I am not a vegetarian yet. I have never had to kill except when to put
a dog down due to illness. I have always copped out on the decision to
eat meat--because I did not have to kill it and see it die. It was easy
to eat it if I did not do the killing. My guess: if I have to kill my
own meat, I probably would become a vegetarian very soon thereafter.
Being grateful and loving toward the animals and foods that we have
killed in order to sustain ourselves does indicate our feelings and
awareness to their sacrifice for us. Is this going to get us off the
hook. I do not know. I do know we are here to live and there is a
purpose for us. We need to sustain ourselves in order to survive. Where
do we stopped at not eating a plant, etc., to survive?

I do not recall the Law of One giving a definitive answer on killing,
but do recall that it was mentioned that intent was significant

On all the other questions on killing, I think it depends on the
situation. I do not think we were intended to stand still, not defend
our self and let some one kill us. Or stand by and watch our other self
kill a child, etc. Each one of us will have to make that choice when it
comes up, and base our decision on intent, understanding, compassion and
wisdom.

In Love and Light,

The Lucky Unicorn,

Fran




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Leslie Tenold]

I also USED to be a hunter, however now I am a vegetarian that eats some fish.
No other meat. Humanity is not equipped to consume meat. Our stomach is not
configured for consuming meat. Ask any knowledgeable doctor. I am convinced the
human body will be healthier without meat but I doubt that being a vegetarian
will lengthen a life. If I eat meat I am responsible as are others for the
death of that animal. LOVE LES
www.healingangels.net
----- Original Message -----
From: grantcleveland
To: asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=I6u4Jq6aABWFK0vLP3-XTiyffj4sGZJVTYADCsR66J1LGTtoAotb0w6qMEI715_YNzvwq xO6Cj1jp9dJM8M)
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 12:12 PM
Subject: [asc2k] Is killing compatible with the Law of One?




Hi All,

I was originally going to post this as a poll but I didn't know how
to correctly format it.

Do you think that killing is compatible with the Law of One?


Yes, killing is OK if the entity will be used for sustenance, is of
a lower density, and love/light energy is projected to the victim or
victim's group soul.

[wubby gump]

Greetings one & all:

As a newcomer to this forum I have hesitated to
participate before I have read the umpteen-thousand
postings thus far (sheesh!), but on this one, I must
relate.......

.....although I HATE referencing a movie scene, there
is one that comes to mind for this very subject. It
also relates to how I was raised. I grew up practicing
catholicism, like many on this planet, & went through
all of my schooling through that base. I receieved a
phenomenal education & a superb
theological/ethological/philosophical base from which
I still draw upon to this very day, although I do not
practice "the faith itself" currently.

FIRST, THE MOVIE!

In Michael Mann's version of "The Last Of The
Mohicans" starring Daniel Day Lewis (and an excellent
supporting cast BTW) the film opens with them hunting.
For those unaware, DDL & two other actors portray
Native Americans. They hunt & slay a deer....and upon
immediately felling the animal, they all kneel before
the deer & pray. They pray to their maker as well as
to the spirit of the animal that they have slain,
thanking their maker & the animal for providing
sustenance to their family & insuring that it died
nobly & that it's loss of life would give itself to
the sustenance of others. They also state that it's
loss is not in vain.

SECONDLY, MY THEOLOGICALLY-BASED UPBRINGING! (a.k.a. -
What the heck does this have to do with what we are
talking about?!?)

A common theme in catholicism is The Almighty (a.k.a.
God The Father) & his "grand design." Henceforth, the
story of Creation & "man shall have dominion over all
the creatures on Earth." I was raised that before
every meal, there was a prayer of thanks to God for
the ability to have this meal of sustenance & that
ultimately God was responsible for it all. (Lots of
meat & potatoes, I assure you)

I see paralells between the scene in the film, how I
was raised, and just the very question you bring up.

The common theme here? REVERENCE

If you revere that which you kill, and you pay respect
& you use that life/energy for positivity, you have
done no harm. I have only read The Law Of One once so
far, & I distinctly recall something about
"experiences." The decisions we make all have
consequences & therefore affect all those around
us.....plant, animal, planet....and
ultimately.....soul. Ours & those around
us.......again, because we are all "one." The reason
we are here in the "third density" is to gain the
experiences necessary to move to the "next level" or
"state of being."

(anyone who wishes to correct me, feel free to jump in
here)

It is in the way that we carry ourselves, the way that
we interact with others & the actions we take here in
this world that affect our future & the lives of those
who will come after us. After all, we all desire
Ascension, do we not? The oft-used cliche "Life's a
journey, not a destination" rings true here does it
not? Life is a summary of experiences, and if you give
reverence IN EVERYTHING THAT YOU DO.........IN EVERY
THOUGHT.........to the "grand design," to The Father &
to the interconnectedness of all things on this
planet......in this universe....then you will have
achieved what so few have strived for in their whole
lives.......& that is understanding.

Admittedly, I hardly see or understand "everything"
that is happening around me as well as to
others.....but there are......."moments of clarity"
(for lack of a better term)......that reveal
themselves to me & all that is necessary for me to
achieve that which I so choose..........

.....I think that a simple way to look at it would be
that (trying not to draw on my my upbringing, but boy,
a lot of The Law Of One rings with how I grew up) you
should begin each day with REVERENCE. If you must
kill, then do so with reverence & not so without
cause. Killing is not unjustifiable, but doing so
without justification nor reverence will bring harm to
more than you know and even comprehend. Always
remember that everything that you do & say & think &
feel is much akin to throwing a pebble in a pond. Just
because you cannot see the ripples flowing past the
horizon, does not mean that they do not reach a shore
somewhere or somehow. That simple pebble has now
changed the shoreline of the entire pond, the things
that exist within it, and even below it. Your
mind/body/spirit energy is under the same principle.
It's just on a universal scale. A universal scale is
pretty much a mind-blowing concept to the majority of
us, but that's where meditation comes in.

SIGH.

I do not know if this is helpful to anyone, but I just
felt I should "weigh in" briefly on the subject.

Best wishes to all who read this, (& apologies if this
is a redundant due to a previous posting)

~ Thomas


--- grantcleveland <grant_a_cleveland@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=tUE54znU_cRI0_jeanuOUZ3Yzqb__gD5TbNd_g D-vaf6Qgd1JZl4tV6RxFuBGYn9D6FTGOO8aokFpVe6FY1HzEyItI s5)>
wrote:

>
>
> Hi All,
> I'm experiencing a major dilemma right now. I've
> hunted and fished
> all my life and I have always used the meat to feed
> my family and
> me. I've done this with (perceived) respect to the
> animal and
> environment but I've had some experiences that make
> me believe that
> intentional killing might be wrong under any
> circumstances. I cannot
> decide if we have the capacity to follow through
> with this noble
> idea in our current 3D environment. Being human,
> there really is no
> way to avoid killing.

[lealdragon]

Grant, I would first like to commend you for you effort at finding a
harmonious solution to the hunting dilemma. I greatly admire and
respect the beautiful way in which you transmuted the situation with
the deer - that you gave thanks to the deer's spirit and feel
appreciation every time you eat the meat from that deer.

As to whether it was 'right' or just a way to feel better about a
'selfish act' - we all do things that may or may not have been 'right'
at the time - the important thing is that we learn and grow from the
experience - as you certainly did.

Someone else replied that according to the LoO, ALL is accepted. I
agree with that to a point, but I think it depends on the perspective.
From God's perspective, yes, we are accepted no matter what. But, from
OUR perspective, we must still live with our choices. From our
perspective, I think there is certainly alot of value is thinking
about our past choices and perhaps deciding to make different choices
in the future.

In other words, I have done a great many things that turned out
'good', but that does not mean I would still do that same thing now.
Now that I have learned and changed, I hope that I would make
different choices in some areas of my life.

I once read a book by Tom Brown about survival in the wilderness. He
had been initiated into a Native American tribe, if I remember
correctly. He told of an experience hunting a deer. The Native
American way was to hunt the smallest/weakest deer of the herd. Quite
the opposite from what most hunters do today, who often seek the
biggest 'trophy'. Tom tracked the deer for several days and felt that
he actually bonded with it. When he took its life, he gave thanks and
believed that the spirit of the deer joined with his.

Many Native tribes believed that qualities of wildlife would unite
with their own spirits, thus making them stronger. For example, the
courage of the bear, or the swiftness of the deer. They spoke to the
spirit of the animal, only took what they needed and wasted nothing.

If these wild animals are 2-d and not yet individuated, then it makes
sense that their consciousness, rather than being poured back into the
group soul, would merge with the consciousness of the hunter and his
tribe.

Contrast this with a cow who senses the fear and pain of the cow in
front of her, on the assembly line of death. The modern factory farm
abuses animals. The cows must be prodded with an electrical shock onto
the platform of their death, and they are in a state of terror because
they can smell the death of the other cows. Their instinct for
survival kicks in and 'fight or flight' hormones surge thru their
bodies, leaving a residue in the meat when eaten.

No one gave thanks to the spirit of the factory farmed animal. That
cow died in a state of fear, and its spirit is long gone by the time
the person buys the meat wrapped in plastic at the store. People,
especially children, often make little connection to the
plastic-wrapped meat and an actual animal.

Having said all that, I will now tell you that I have been a
vegetarian for 32 of my 44 years. I hope that I have succeeded in
making my point that I admire your actions in the appreciative way
that you handled the deer that you had killed.

When I first became a vegetarian, I becaome a crusader for animal's
rights to the point that it became almost a religion for me. I became
very judgemental and people would become intimidated by me. I regret
that - I may have done more harm than good in some cases.

Then, at one point I had an experience that deeply humbled me on this
issue and I no longer believe that it is my place to tell someone
whether they should or should not eat meat.

However, since you did ask for opinions, what I will say is that the
situation of the Native peoples is quite different from our situation
today. At that time, people had to kill animals for survival. They had
no choice. Therefore, they did it in a loving and appreciative way. I
personally think killing an animal for survival is not wrong, provided
it TRULY IS for survival, and not just for sport.

But, such is not the case today. Few of us, if any, truly NEED to eat
animals. It has been well documented that a vegetarian diet is not
only adequate but actually healthier. There are many reasons to be a
vegetarian in addition to the ethical reason of compassion for animals
- it is better for one's body, better for the environment, and more
efficient in feeding the world's population.

For a full explanation of this, I invite you to check out any of the
books by John Robbins, most especially 'Diet for a New America'.

It is true that some people do not thrive on a strictly vegan diet -
that is, no eggs or dairy. But with the addition of organic (humanely
raised) eggs and hormone-free cheeses/yogurt/goat milk, it is quite
easy. Even a vegan diet is adequate - it just requires a bit more
education. It's even cheaper, since meat is expensive.

In other words, there really is no reason to justify killing an animal
nowadays, because we simply do not HAVE to have its meat for
sustenance. So, why kill when it is not necessary?

I have often heard the argument that I kill when I eat a carrot or an
apple. The LoO has helped me reconcile this by realizing that there
are levels of consciousness. It is true that we cannot avoid killing
completely. But bacteria (both 'good' and 'bad') live and thrive in
our bodies - in fact our bodies could not function without some types
of bacteria. Perhaps when we inhale a microorganism, it is not really
'dying' but is simply joining its consciousness with ours.

I would not slam on the brakes (and risk a car accident) to avoid
hitting a butterfly, because I consider the risk to human lives more
important than the butterfly's. But I would avoid killing the
butterfly if possible. Likewise, who among us would rescue a head of
lettuce rather than a dog or cat? Obviously it can get dangerous if we
take this idea too far, such as prejudice against certain races of
people, but when choosing between a vegetable and an animal with a
face who can run away, I think the reality is that most of us would
save the dog b4 the lettuce, right?

Since we have physical bodies and must eat something, then personally
I would rather eat a carrot, or even an egg, than a cow or deer.

Someone said to me, 'but how do you know the carrot does not feel
pain, that it would not flee if it could?' To which I responded, 'If
the spirit of that carrot was sufficiently evolved to have attained
some degree of individual awareness, then I do not think it would
choose to incarnate into the body of a carrot'.

In other words, since you asked for guidelines, my opinion is that if
it is in a body that can run away, then that is an indication that it
shouldn't be killed. (At least not by us humans who have the capacity
for compassion and can think about it, as opposed to a wolf or lion
who is operating on pure survival instinct.)

There is abundant evidence that carnivorous animals (lions, wolves,
etc) are designed to eat meat (sharp fangs for tearing flesh, short
digestive tracts, a lust for bloody flesh) whereas our bodies are not
(we must cook and disguise meat in order to make it palatable, do not
have the teeth or digestive system for eating meat, etc.)

A simple test is to watch your dog or cat salivate over a piece of raw
meat, whereas we are repulsed by it until it is cooked and seasoned.

My personal guideline for killing is quite simple: if it runs away in
fear when it senses you intend to kill it, or if it can obviously feel
pain, then I would choose to simply NOT kill it. There is no need,
when there are plenty of other foods that do not run away.

Where I draw the line is anything with a face. Some vegetarians do not
eat eggs, dairy, or even honey. While I respect their views,
personally I consider these to be gifts from the animal kingdom
(provided they were raised humanely: ie, free-range eggs as opposed to
factory-farmed eggs) that did not involve actually killing an animal.

Vegans (vegetarians who eat no eggs or dairy) might debate that with
me - I have had some people act judgementally towards me for eating
eggs or cheese! But I try not to play the game of 'who's the purest of
us all'.

In alignment with the LoO, I think that it is an intrusion into the
free will of the animal to take its life when it is obviously trying
to escape getting killed.

The deer that appeared close to you was standing still, but if you had
made a move to alert it to your intentions, surely it would have run
away.

These are just my thoughts and I hope I am not coming across as
judgemental.
- once again I admire your process of searching for your own balance
on this matter. My suggestion would be to heed your inner promptings -
even tho you transformed that situation with the deer, your inner
guidance is speaking to you for a reason; my suggestion would be to at
least learn more about vegetarianism b4 making a final decision.

blessings

Monica

PS Here is an excellent site, with lots of details on vegetarianism:
Love animals Don't eat them http://www.vegsoc.org/



> Where can we and should we draw the line? If any of you are not
> vegetarians do you think about this when you purchase that steak at
> the market? Can I lovingly kill an animal?
>