sexual orientation

[Gail Sherman]

I have not posted for awhile because I am visiting my sister for a week and am
not familiar with her e-mail system. But I cannot resist this emotionally
charged issue. LOL
Jason I have a hard time understanding your outlook on this issue. If indeed you
are Mormon I guess I can understand that you were raised to believe what you do
but were you raised to believe in anything remotely resembling the Ra material?
This is surely a departure from Mormonism. Having then questioned this aspect of
what you traditionally were taught, did you not then question all other aspects
of these teachings? Don't get me wrong It's fine with me that you are Mormon,
but it seems that it is not fine with you if I am Gay. I had to examine all
aspects of my beliefs when I found them erroneous in one area. How can we
examine others' beliefs to say nothing about correcting them. It sounds like you
are so convinced that you are right and they (gay people and people who think
that being gay is ok) are wrong.

The quote you made about being too late by 8, shines a glaring spotlight on your
bias and your ignorance of gay people. This is an assumption that is widely made
in our society. Being Gay Is NOT synonomous with pedophilia. This belief is
based on fear. Only pedophiles prey on children. I agree that this can change
ones sexual orientation but that is not the damaging part of being the recipient
of a pedophiles attentions. I was sexually abused by my father since before I
can remember, as were my sisters. The damage done is beyond my ability to
communicate to you but I will say that this is what blocked me from ever having
that loving sexual connection that so many have spoken of in these posts. It
brings a self-hatred that only allows one to [indisciminately bounce from
partner to partner]. Thankfully I can experiece the oneness and bliss in other
than sexual ways. I obviously chose this path before this incarnation but I do
not remember doing so. In my mind I would trade my heterosexual experiences with
my father for one of a loving homosexual experince. Let's let them make their
choices, they are not trying to change ours.

[Jason Wharton]

Gail,

Thanks for your comments and questions. I am indeed LDS (Mormon) and perhaps a
little more open minded than is typical. I don't claim to have all truth that
is out there to be had. LDS members are encouraged to investigate, probe and
understand all kinds of stuff on many fronts; science, history, religious,
culture, politics, etc. It's part of our culture to be this way.

I'm not here because I have dissatisfaction with my present beliefs and culture
and looking for an 'out'. I am merely living my culture by being involved in
order to gain experience, knowledge and share what I feel inspired to share.
For me it's just life to be out here doing as I'm doing.

I totally acknowledge your comments that there are stereotypes being used and
that is not helpful to gays, the LDS or anyone. I'll do my best from now on to
lower my stereotypes and just talk principles. That way, when a principle is
clearly understood then everyone can walk away knowing by listening to their own
spirit how much this applies to them, if at all.

That way, no person is judging another person, but we together are discussing
the principles of life and trying to shine a spot-light into all aspects of life
to gain a fuller view and where we fit into the grand scheme of things.

This is one thing I really like about the Law of One material is because it goes
levels so deep that I can see where various different belief systems, including
my own, fit into it.

That is new for me because usually it is the other way around. In any case, I
don't mind experimenting with this idea even if there is the risk it could
rattle, invalidate or otherwise deter me from my current path. There is no path
higher than truth and that is my first loyalty.

There is a place and a context for everything and the Law of One does a
beautiful job of giving the framework for understanding all things and seeing
the interconnectedness of all things.

This becomes alive for me through discussion here as I try to take the issues of
concern to me and bat them around in an environment where people have the
wide-field vision the Law of One fosters.

I've found it surprising and frustrating that many here that purport to be Law
of One students get all weird and defensive and their dander up just because
some religious guy has been sparked with great interest about the Law of One and
wants to explore things from his/my world view. I thought the Law of One was
designed to support worldviews from Hitler to Jesus.

I do hope you will agree it is infringement for an adult to traumatize a young
child sexually for the purpose of permanently altering their sexual identity,
knowingly or unknowingly. I believe you could hold this idea even though you
have very maturely accepted the reality of what happened and even accepted that
you agreed for it to be in your possible future in a past decision.

I really want to thank your for coming out of lurking and putting your two cents
into the discussion. I applaud you and your life. You are taking on something I
am not sure I could do. I truly wish you with all of my heart that the love and
bliss of life continue to graciously flow to you.

I hope you will recognize that it is your pain and self-hatred that you very
vividly depicted for us that resulted from your life's circumstances that calls
out to my soul and that motivates me to seek to heal and correct. It is the
pain in others that draws compassion out of me. Perhaps it doesn't come though
in how I speak but it is there. I surely am not here to puff myself up and feel
better about myself because I can prove someone else is less than I am.

In the post that was rejected I gave my own first person account where I was
abused, molested and nearly raped by a homosexual manager when I was 17 years
old. I know a small portion of the pain and confusion you have suffered and I
also had an insight into the pain and misery that manager was suffering. My only
intent is to heal and restore unity wherever possible, not further rift us
apart.

In my opinion you chose the path you did as an attempt to help heal your
father's pain and suffering and you continue to bear its load and all of your
victories over that will become his victories and our victories too.

God bless you Gail!

Jason Wharton

[lealdragon]

In all fairness to Jason, I don't think he meant that it is 'not ok'
with people who are gay, anymore than he would 'not be ok' with
someone with any other type of 'distortion'. We ALL have distortions
in one form or another. Correct me if I am wrong Jason, but what I got
from what he said was simply the point that, in his view, it IS a
distortion.

I sincerely sympathize with what happened to you. I was abused too,
tho not sexually, so I can relate on some level. I have known lesbian
women who told me they could not have a relationship with a man due to
the sexaul abuse they had endured at the hands of men. In those cases
at least, I do not think it is judgemental to say that their
lesbianism is a 'distortion' or 'imbalance' brought about by the
unfortunate abuse they had suffered. This in no way is meant to be
critical or judgemental of them! Especially since they were the victims!

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=BPUE4F7rlXbcZy708auZkl5TMrcOWcQXR0dUiE mFYpgkOk1E88w-0lPnT9bbrEyLUWc_TDzkKrResu0), "Gail Sherman" <gail.sherman@s...> wrote:
> I have not posted for awhile because I am visiting my sister for a
week and am not familiar with her e-mail system. But I cannot resist
this emotionally charged issue. LOL
> Jason I have a hard time understanding your outlook on this issue.
If indeed you are Mormon I guess I can understand that you were raised
to believe what you do but were you raised to believe in anything
remotely resembling the Ra material? This is surely a departure from
Mormonism. Having then questioned this aspect of what you
traditionally were taught, did you not then question all other aspects
of these teachings? Don't get me wrong It's fine with me that you are
Mormon, but it seems that it is not fine with you if I am Gay. I had
to examine all aspects of my beliefs when I found them erroneous in
one area. How can we examine others' beliefs to say nothing about
correcting them. It sounds like you are so convinced that you are
right and they (gay people and people who think that being gay is ok)
are wrong.

[Mary]

Jaosn,

I am SO sorry you had to go through that. I am also sorry that I rushed to
judge you "homophobic" . . . and tried to "correct" your way of thinking. I
too have past experiences that tend to get my back up on this issue, although on
the other side. Of course that's where we get into trouble, is when we choose
sides, right? ;-)

Thank you for this conversation, for me it has become an opportunity for coming
to a greater understanding of what being One means. I see now that neither of
us is right, neither of us is wrong, and it's dumb to argue a point like this.
*Especially* since neither of us is actually gay. LOL

I would like to point out to you, for the sake of converstation, that some
heterosexual men will do to young girls what was done to you. I have my own
personal accounts to testify to that, however I will not share them as they are
in the past now and I'm over it. But I will say it happened to me, and it
happened to several of my friends too. And look at the Mary Kay Latourno (sp? I
don't watch the news much!) case, where a woman took advantage of a young boy.
Really the problem here is when ANYONE is sexually victimized, whoever they are,
whatever their sexual orientation, etc. And here I go again, pointing fingers,
trying to say it's somebody's fault. But I also think that no one should have
to endure something like that, and once it's happened, unless we can really step
away from that experience we are damaged by it. I can honestly say it took me a
good decade to get over what happened to me. That's a good chunk of my life
spent wondering "why me?" and thinking that I must have done something to have
deserved it . . . that I was bad, dirty, etc. And I am lucky, some people
don't EVER get over that sort of thing. My point is, I do think that we should
all examine our lives and live in such a way to cause as little damage to others
as possible, however I guess it's not my place to expect that from anyone.
hehehe

Still love ya!!!

Mary


In the post that was rejected I gave my own first person account where I was
abused, molested and nearly raped by a homosexual manager when I was 17 years
old. I know a small portion of the pain and confusion you have suffered and I
also had an insight into the pain and misery that manager was suffering. My only
intent is to heal and restore unity wherever possible, not further rift us
apart.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Stephen Tyman]

I have hesitated long before entering the lists on this troubled topic. I
will be succint.

Sex is one channel for the manifestation of desire. It is not for us to
judge desire, either within ourselves or in others.

Desire is polymorphous. It is also often confused. When confused it is not
purely what it is. Purification is discovery of deeper desire. At a certain
level of purity desire no longer draws to itself, but becomes radiant. Is this
still desire? A semantic problem.

There are many ways for desire to be confused. Quirkiness and misdirection
are manifestations of confusion. Within these manifestations one may lose one's
way.

Sex is a modality of desire that brings us into contact with others. Such
contact yields opportunity to serve and to be served. Either polarity is
available.

Sex is also a modality that has built into it a secret way to higher states
of consciousness and conditions of being. There is in the female that which
completes the male and vice versa. There is an electro-magnetic circuitry in
place, with definite properties supplied uniquely by each gender. This is
arranged such that when release of the lower, more clutching forms of desire has
been achieved (green ray love and moving beyond), it is as if a gate has swung
open. One is bathed in light of a penetrating cleanliness. For this there are
no words.

The physics/metaphysics of this event are such that it is possible only in
the context of the trans-gender encounter. That is simply the way of it. No
judgement.

How many have been ushered through this gate? Perhaps not many. Wounds in
this area run deep, and are deeply disabling. And so the wounded tend to the
wounded. There is love in this, too. Love takes what form it must, as it
always seeks the way out of its own limitations. Therefore I say again let us
not judge.

One last point: the issue of our desire (in whatever order of purity) is
perchance the offspring. There is an exquisite opportunity to serve and to
purify the desire in this relationship. It is not the fast train to
enlightenment. But sometimes slow is best. Even same-sex couples may adopt.
Do we not all limp through our service as best we can?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Gail Sherman]

For clarity I will label Jason's paragraphs with a J and my own with a G
Gail Sherman


(J) Gail, Thanks for your comments and questions. I am indeed LDS (Mormon)
and perhaps a little more open minded than is typical. I don't claim to have
all truth that is out there to be had. LDS members are encouraged to
investigate, probe and understand all kinds of stuff on many fronts;
science, history, religious, culture, politics, etc. It's part of our
culture to be this way.

(J) I'm not here because I have dissatisfaction with my present beliefs and
culture and looking for an 'out'. I am merely living my culture by being
involved in order to gain experience, knowledge and share what I Feel
inspired to share. For me it's just life to be out here doing as I'm doing.

(G) Jason: I have met many Mormons (before my eyes were open) and most of
them were very open-minded. I am happy that you have been able to integrate
your beliefs with the Ra material. I could not do so with my Previous Belief
system but have retained some truths I found in it.

(J) That way, no person is judging another person, but we together are
discussing the principles of life and trying to shine a spot-light into all
aspects of life to gain a fuller view and where we fit into the grand scheme
of things.

(G) Are we even supposed to know where we fit into the "grand scheme of
things?" Does it matter? Would this not just perpetuate ego? Can we just
follow our paths toward the light? I do not have a clue where I fit but am
just trying to walk my path as it is revealed to me in the now both
receiving the gifts there for me on the way and giving out of what I
receive. I think we will see the grand design when it is all woven together
with love.

(J) That is new for me because usually it is the other way around. In any
case, I don't mind experimenting with this idea even if there is the risk it
could rattle, invalidate or otherwise deter me from my current path. There
is no path higher than truth and that is my first loyalty.

(G) Love is the only truth.

(J) I've found it surprising and frustrating that many here that purport to
be Law of One students get all weird and defensive and their dander up Just
because some religious guy has been sparked with great interest about the
Law of One and wants to explore things from his/my world view. I thought the
Law of One was designed to support worldviews from Hitler to Jesus.

(G) Worldviews like Hitler's are supported as a contrast to Love and a
catalyst to propel us toward the shift. His fear of "inferior" races and
peoples was the catalyst for his actions. When we act from fear the results
will always polarize toward the negative.

(J) I do hope you will agree it is infringement for an adult to traumatize a
young child sexually for the purpose of permanently altering their sexual
identity, knowingly or unknowingly. I believe you could hold this idea even
though you have very maturely accepted the reality of what happened and even
accepted that you agreed for it to be in your possible future in a past
decision.

(G) It is an infringement for an adult to traumatize a child in any way for
ANY purpose. How can we learn from children if their psyche has been
shattered?

(J) I really want to thank your for coming out of lurking and putting your
two cents into the discussion. I applaud you and your life. You are taking
on something I am not sure I could do. I truly wish you with all of my Heart
that the love and bliss of life continue to graciously flow to you.

(G)(Just an aside) I have not been lurking and have posted where I feel I
should or if the joy of all that is happening to me overwhelms me so that I
cannot contain it.

(J) I hope you will recognize that it is your pain and self-hatred that you
very vividly depicted for us that resulted from your life's Circumstances
that calls out to my soul and that motivates me to seek to heal and correct.
It is the pain in others that draws compassion out of me. Perhaps it doesn't
come though in how I speak but it is there. I surely am not here to puff
myself up and feel better about myself because I can prove someone else is
less than I am.

(G) Once again it is the word "correct" that bothers me. It does denote a
judgment of something that you believe to be wrong. While you feel that
homosexuality is wrong how can you correct it? Are you the conscience that
lies within them? They have as much access to the Creator as we do. If you
feel that they are not hearing the voice of the Creator, will they hear you?
Can we not trust the Creator to show them their path?

(J) In the post that was rejected I gave my own first person account where I
was abused, molested and nearly raped by a homosexual manager when I was 17
years old. I know a small portion of the pain and confusion you have
suffered and I also had an insight into the pain and misery that manager was
suffering. My only intent is to heal and restore unity wherever possible,
not further rift us apart.

(G)When you tell someone they are wrong how will that heal and restore
unity? If they are wrong does that then make you right?

(J) In my opinion you chose the path you did as an attempt to help heal
your father's pain and suffering and you continue to bear its load and all
of your victories over that will become his victories and our victories too.
God bless you Gail! Jason Wharton

(G) I do not know why I chose this path. Your suggestion for the reasoning
is Interesting. Being a psychology major I know He certainly had Anti-Social
personality disorder. This term has changed from Sociopath. I prefer it as
it describes better the wide swath of pain and destruction these people
leave in their wake. They have no conscience and they take only for their
own gratification regardless of the pain it brings to others. Sylvia Brown
says that these people keep cycling toward the negative in their
incarnations and while I don't agree with everything she says this makes
sense to me. When I have completely forgiven myself I will have completely
forgiven him. This is inevitable.

Looking forward to seeing you in the Grand design

Love is...

Gail








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jason Wharton]

Gail, I've inserted some remarks with "Jason:" preceding them.

(J) That way, no person is judging another person, but we together are
discussing the principles of life and trying to shine a spot-light into all
aspects of life to gain a fuller view and where we fit into the grand scheme
of things.

(G) Are we even supposed to know where we fit into the "grand scheme of
things?" Does it matter? Would this not just perpetuate ego? Can we just
follow our paths toward the light? I do not have a clue where I fit but am
just trying to walk my path as it is revealed to me in the now both
receiving the gifts there for me on the way and giving out of what I
receive. I think we will see the grand design when it is all woven together
with love.

Jason: I think we are both more or less saying the same thing. I agree there
are pitfalls you have wisely alluded to that one does well to beware of.

(J) There is no path higher than truth and that is my first loyalty.

(G) Love is the only truth.

Jason: I like this statement. It rings true for me as well. Though I guess I
still like getting caught up with all the trappings of history, science,
technology, etc. which love also permeates...

(J) I've found it surprising and frustrating that many here that purport to
be Law of One students get all weird and defensive and their dander up Just
because some religious guy has been sparked with great interest about the
Law of One and wants to explore things from his/my world view. I thought the
Law of One was designed to support worldviews from Hitler to Jesus.

(G) Worldviews like Hitler's are supported as a contrast to Love and a
catalyst to propel us toward the shift. His fear of "inferior" races and
peoples was the catalyst for his actions. When we act from fear the results
will always polarize toward the negative.

Jason: Yes, I'm aware of that. That is my basis for wondering why people on
this list get their dander up when I'm here working through my own issues
coming from a LDS context. It's kind of like I get the idea Mormonism to
some people here must be worse than Nazism. I sense a certain amount of
fear/disdain people have concerning it and I'd like to explore/understand
its basis so that we can dispel any unnecessary fears, on either side for
that matter.

(G) It is an infringement for an adult to traumatize a child in any way for
ANY purpose. How can we learn from children if their psyche has been
shattered?

Jason: Yes, exactly. That is what I am trying to draw attention to. I get
the idea people here intend to focus on the love aspect of the Law of One
and yet I find it truly amazing to meet up with the level of resistance I do
when I draw attention to this self-perpetuating anti-love force acting in an
through people. I know it is very uncomfortable to have a light shine
somewhere you don't want it to, but aren't we here to do that for one
another in a loving way?

Even if it is possibly embarrassing or uncomfortable, we need to be open
towards one another and put all issues on the table in complete honesty so
we can distill as a group where this anti-love energy originates and how it
perpetuates and get very clear on its devices and implementations. Then, we
will have opportunity to create within ourselves as a group a way to keep
this anti-love force at bay by each person's own inspired choices rather
than any instrument of compulsion or manipulation.

(J) I hope you will recognize that it is your pain and self-hatred that you
very vividly depicted for us that resulted from your life's Circumstances
that calls out to my soul and that motivates me to seek to heal and correct.
It is the pain in others that draws compassion out of me. Perhaps it doesn't
come though in how I speak but it is there. I surely am not here to puff
myself up and feel better about myself because I can prove someone else is
less than I am.

(G) Once again it is the word "correct" that bothers me. It does denote a
judgment of something that you believe to be wrong. While you feel that
homosexuality is wrong how can you correct it? Are you the conscience that
lies within them? They have as much access to the Creator as we do. If you
feel that they are not hearing the voice of the Creator, will they hear you?
Can we not trust the Creator to show them their path?

Jason: I'm more clearly seeing this and I do indeed have room for growth
here. Although, one point I still believe is healthy (I am hung up on
perhaps), and it hasn't been easy to develop this ability, is to separate
the "sinner" and the "sin". It's much easier said than done but I believe if
this is truly done and the sinner is able to clearly perceive it this way
then that is a loving context that builds unity. In fact, I believe real
love is what allows this.

As a result of participating in lists like this one I'm also becoming more
and more willing to merely share what I hope will help by way of principles
and then to fully detach expectation of what the person does with it. In
essence, that is more fully giving space to the person to listen to their
own higher-self/conscience/etc. and govern their own life entirely free of
my judgment/expectation.

Put even shorter, it is allowing everyone to determine for themselves what
is right and wrong *for themselves* rather than me saying I know what is
right or wrong *for them*.

I am getting very clear on this important distinction and I believe it will
open up space for being closer and more loving with people. I can thank you
and others (and of course my higher-self) for showing me this possibility.
I'm sure it will allow my 5 children a much healthier environment to grow up
in too.

Put another way, if I spill my heart on some matters "preaching" some kind
of principles then if I feel I have been understood clearly I can in full
conscience leave it totally up to the receiver to do with it as they chose.
If what I say applies to them their higher-self will resonate it to them and
confirm it. This is entirely within them to chose and it isn't my place to
dictate what is their own internal feelings, etc. Perhaps we can refer to
this as the golden sharing method.

It's kind of like you pointing out things I'm missing or where I'm over a
line in places, or even merely appear to be. I chose to receive your
contributions to me as an expression of your love rather than choosing to
feel degraded or looked down upon. I believe the receiver's can be just as
responsible for separatist attitudes even if (and especially when) they
think they have others to blame.

(J) In the post that was rejected I gave my own first person account where I
was abused, molested and nearly raped by a homosexual manager when I was 17
years old. I know a small portion of the pain and confusion you have
suffered and I also had an insight into the pain and misery that manager was
suffering. My only intent is to heal and restore unity wherever possible,
not further rift us apart.

(G)When you tell someone they are wrong how will that heal and restore
unity? If they are wrong does that then make you right?

Jason: As I mentioned above, it is merely my desire to share what possibly
will bring healing for others, which I 100% agree won't come from me, but
from their own inner spiritual confirmations. My only hope would be to serve
as an instrument to awaken them to their own realizations.

Then, depending on whether or not they want to connect with their
higher-self, they would be free to chose. My intent isn't to degrade or
invalidate the person, but if they didn't want their higher-self to resonate
truths they could chose to take offence and avoid it by claiming to be
invalidated, when in truth, they are the ones invalidating themselves if it
is the case where what I had to say would resonate with them. Hope that's
clear.

A well balanced healthy person could stand in the face of anyone's criticism
and totally acknowledge it by repeating it so the giver knows it was
understood and then objectively allow what applies to apply and if it
doesn't resonate then it will simply fall like water off a duck's back.
Anyone getting upset or having compulsive reactions obviously has some
serious blockages/distortion sapping their power/life energy and they would
do well to "be with" the discomforts with faith knowing a more loving and
healthy mode of life awaits them via the healing that would come if they
patiently endured the confrontation.

(J) In my opinion you chose the path you did as an attempt to help heal
your father's pain and suffering and you continue to bear its load and all
of your victories over that will become his victories and our victories too.
God bless you Gail! Jason Wharton

(G) I do not know why I chose this path. Your suggestion for the reasoning
is Interesting. Being a psychology major I know He certainly had Anti-Social
personality disorder. This term has changed from Sociopath. I prefer it as
it describes better the wide swath of pain and destruction these people
leave in their wake. They have no conscience and they take only for their
own gratification regardless of the pain it brings to others. Sylvia Brown
says that these people keep cycling toward the negative in their
incarnations and while I don't agree with everything she says this makes
sense to me. When I have completely forgiven myself I will have completely
forgiven him. This is inevitable.

Looking forward to seeing you in the Grand design
Love is...


Jason: I'm glad I could give you something interesting to consider. I've
certainly grown in the space you have given me and I appreciate it very
much.

Kind regards,
Jason Wharton

[protoplasmicorganism]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=bkB6FJNTgBdBNxLXMashiFJU-FNkpUi4hNaOX6XCgUONvlwfleGyWtgg5sd8P-CzbkMXkUabf23yUDA), "lealdragon" <lealdragon@s...> wrote:
> I have known lesbian women who told
me they could not have a relationship
with a man due to the sexaul abuse
they had endured at the hands of men.


How sad. How tragic. I'm sorry to
hear about that. And unfortunately
it can happen the other way too.
Somehow I got caught in circumstance
of abuse by a woman. And I feel
grateful that I could just take space
and make peace in that way. I feel
grateful that I met women who have
helped me. It seems that women have
a merciful sensitivity that can often
be squished by the severity of some
masculine steam roller. Oh dear,
that may be true in many ways, huh?
And I like that TV show, the L-Word,
how it reveals the multifaceted
nature and merciful couplings that
women can enjoy, communicating beyond
words so naturally. Admiringly, patrick