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View Full Version : Cause and Effect vs. War in Iraq



Daniel Moeck
07-08-2004, 06:19 PM
greetings everyone,

fran, the lucky unicorn wrote:


>i am sorry we are in iraq. i did not back the action in any way. i ask
>the people of iraq to forgive me, and my country's people for our
>participation, destruction, the killing of their people, and the abuse
>and occupation of their country. i write this not to get me off the
>hook, but to invoke forgiveness and help stop the karma.
>
>in love and light,


i hope it is o.k. if i shift this topic a little more toward the topic of
the u.s. occupation of iraq. i think it has been very hard for most
americans to come to peace about this whole situation. more understanding
of karma, forgiveness, and personal vs. national responsibility could
restore some of the unity we, as a nation, have lost over it.

my son had just entered the army hoping to get some vocational training,
and i had just started a new love relationship when it was announced that
the u.s. would invade iraq. i have had to consider all sides of the
situation very deeply and yet, after all these months, am still quite
unsettled about it. the new girlfriend was radically opposed to the war
because she opposes absolutely all violence without exceptions. i wrote
letters to my representatives voicing my opposition, but once we were
committed i supported it, half-heartedly. i tried to reason that even
though many iraqi civilians died (9436 according to:
http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html) in our invasion, that in the
long term we were saving more of their lives by stopping saddam who is
thought to have killed over 100,000 during his reign. i agree with jim
holmes who just posted: "defense of the innocent is not bad karma. even if
it is, i will choose to act and accept the karma rather than stand and
watch." the girlfriend and i soon parted ways because she could not answer
me when i asked if she would have me run away if we were walking through
the park together and a mugger attacked her. she could not admit that she
was at odds with her own vehement opposition to all violence, including
defensive violence.

so, knowing my peace-loving son as well as i do, i know that he is serving
his country with honor and bravery, even though he never expected to see
action, and he believes in the mission he is on. he is fighting to make the
world safer for his own wife and children, and i pray that our government
has not tricked him into serving a larger agenda of nation building. every
day i have asked god, "what would love have me personally do to help end
this conflict?"
now i ask any of you who wish to respond, "what would love have you do
about it?"

i don't think i know the best answer yet. but here are a few thoughts and
possibilities:

1) if our leaders' reasons for the invasion were a lie but we all united in
supporting it because we actually believed, as most of our service members
seem to, that we were doing the noble and loving thing for the people of
iraq, then wouldn't the outcome have to be positive anyway?

2) the love we demonstrate in our own immediate circle of influence here at
home actually steers the collective mind of the world toward love more than
any political lobbying we could do hoping to change our leaders' minds.

3) karma is mutable to gods who can truly forgive themselves (i just made
that up). i can't find it now, but i'm sure i read in the first few
chapters of "the shift of the ages" that karma is generally always finished
in one lifetime or less. in other words, the tyrants who killed 1000's or
1,000,000's of innocents do not come back that same number of lifetimes to
suffer the same fate they inflicted on others. does this not suggest that
self-forgiveness, or acceptance of grace/atonement nullifies karma?

4) here is a concise list of tyrants of the 20th century and the numbers of
people they murdered: http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
is it hard to accept the possibility that some of them may have already
served their karma and are living normal lives amongst the rest of us now?

5) i know many good-hearted, loving americans today who support the ideals
of communism and socialism and vote accordingly. if you had helped to elect
someone who turned out to be a wolf in sheep's clothing like some of the
murderous tyrants on the above list would your sense of guilt condemn you
to share their karma, and would you then be happy you could wipe that
karmic slate clean in just 1 lifetime? or, how much of their karma would
you share if you had the power to stop them early in their campaigns, as
pres. bush claims he was doing with saddam, but you elected to stand by and
watch the carnage from a safe distance because you were afraid to kill
anyone in the process of stopping the tyrant?

i guess that's quite enough to get my point across. thank you all for
reading this.

daniel moeck



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Paul Dorner
07-08-2004, 07:11 PM
daniel,

i thank you for the service of your son...

i am sure we all support our troops, our sons and daughters in harms way.......

this country and this planet is now more polarized than i have ever seen it
and i believe it is all coming to a head...

we should never attack a country which has not attacked us.

[non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Daniel Moeck
07-08-2004, 09:04 PM
hi paul,

actually, if you think about it maybe you will realize why i specifically
asked, "what would love have you do about it?"

germany did not attack us in ww2. should we have stayed out of that one
too? i think it is more the clash of political ideologies and party
dominance that has polarized this country on this issue. but i don't see
much consideration of love in the political debate. alternatively, how
about answering, "what would the avoidance of negative karma have you do
about it?"

daniel moeck


at 08:11 pm 7/8/2004, you wrote:

>daniel,
>
> i thank you for the service of your son...
>
>i am sure we all support our troops, our sons and daughters in harms
>way.......
>
> this country and this planet is now more polarized than i have ever
> seen it and i believe it is all coming to a head...
>
> we should never attack a country which has not attacked us.

GenoNess1@...
07-09-2004, 08:25 AM
in a message dated 7/9/2004 5:25:07 am pacific daylight time, dmoeck@... (/group/asc2k/post?postid=xbqdqowszmitjjqebnt0j1t9mo5one0mjnuurc dvwafezox8fecuqxhb1kox_rrzj1yqbj6_nq)
writes:
alternatively, how
about answering, "what would the avoidance of negative karma have you do
about it?"


hmmm...the past is past. who knows what changes without our awareness since
then. love, me!


[non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Daniel Moeck
07-09-2004, 03:20 PM
hi daniel,

thank you so much for the detailed response! i will try to keep this as
short as i can by focusing more on why your thoughts were so helpful to me
rather than covering all the points again. it seems safe to assume that
most of the members of this list strongly opposed the u.s. invasion of
iraq. yet, that is where we are likely to be for awhile. it touches all our
lives in powerful ways regardless of our individual views about it. i am
grateful to you for all of your well spoken comments about it because i see
how you rose to the challenge of reexamining and even modifying your
vehement opposition. in order to truly demonstrate peace and love in one's
life i think we have no choice but to face the issues that trouble us
head-on and make peace with them and find nothing but love for everyone we
vehemently disagree with. so i brought this topic up here on this list,
where i know it will not degenerate into never-ending political arguments,
in order to move toward healing the rift it seems to have caused in our
nation's unity.

i too am a student of "a course in miracles" and have found my spiritual
answers to this question there. i haven't completed all of the highly
recommended reading for this list yet but as far as i can see at this point
acim and "the law of one" are in close agreement here. it is the "ego
mind", the part of us that sees itself as separate from god, that also sees
a need for self-defense. the ultimate truth is that we are each eternal
spirits which merely inhabit mortal bodies as a learning experience.
therefore we cannot actually be harmed in any way because we are not our
bodies. these 2 sets of teachings seem to be in close agreement about
forgiveness too.

it is the application of these spiritual truths to my daily life that seems
so hard. i came into this life with such strong memories of my previous
life as a gypsy who was experimented on and tortured by the nazis that i
could hardly separate it from my memories of this life. when going through
a series of rebirthing sessions my soul easily worked backwards to the time
of birth in this life, skipped over the actual birth trauma and went right
into working backwards through that past life as if there were no
separation. (in fact, someone who was once approached by a.r.e. to fill
edgar cayce's shoes pointed out to me that my soul had been stuck in a
cycle of incarnations for a very long time that revolved over and over from
"soldier" to "victim" to "clergyman" in an effort to finally resolve this
whole dance of "war" for myself and others.)

so when i look at this whole iraq situation i can know in my conscious mind
that everything is in divine order, yet my ego/reptilian mind still
flip-flops all over the place about it. it boggles my ego/reptilian mind to
think of how much similar trauma is being logged into the souls of victims
all over the world right now. i suspect that the split in our country's
unity that we are discussing reflects similar feelings in all who are
speaking out. and i'm not even a "bleeding heart liberal". i believe even
most war hawks are driven by a desire to end suffering. the rift seems to
be over how to accomplish that end. i find that changing my personal
perspective on it from that of ego to that of spirit, is the first step.
reaching out to like-minded people, as i am now, seems to be a second step.

daniel moeck



at 08:06 am 7/9/2004, you wrote:

>well, this might be a bit confusing since my name is
>daniel also. i'll label my comments "me:" i wanted
>to respond because i have been opposed to the invasion
>of iraq since before it happened, for several reasons.


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Paul Dorner
07-09-2004, 04:34 PM
daniel:

we definately are from opposite sides of the political spectrum.......

i cry and cry and am deeply upset about this whole iraq thing when i see our
sons and daughters put in this situation..........

go see farenheit911 and then come back and talk to me.............

i can't just sit here and argue with you , it is much too emotional for me......

paul

Daniel Moeck
07-09-2004, 07:22 PM
paul,

at 05:34 pm 7/9/2004, you wrote:

>daniel:
>
>we definately are from opposite sides of the political spectrum.......
>
>i cry and cry and am deeply upset about this whole iraq thing when i see
>our sons and daughters put in this situation..........
>
>go see farenheit911 and then come back and talk to me.............
>
>i can't just sit here and argue with you , it is much too emotional for
>me......
>
>paul

i hate to see our sons and daughters being used as political pawns too (to
whatever extent that may be happening) when they go believing the cause is
only a noble one. when has war ever been any different? and i have no doubt
that bush was very heavily influenced by big oil and nwo interests, just as
carey, gore, or most any other possible replacement would have been. this
is nothing new either. just beware of the true motives of anyone who would
slant the facts to play on your fears and anger without showing you all
their cards first.

i don't know when, or if, michael moore's movie will ever come to my remote
conservative area. wishing not to start any arguments i will just say that
i think the november elections will tell how smart bush actually was to
have given moore the interview in the first place.

you can e-mail me privately if you want to continue this further.

take care,

daniel moeck



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Michael Papa
07-10-2004, 09:31 AM
>i don't know when, or if, michael moore's movie will ever come to my remote
>conservative area. wishing not to start any arguments i will just say that
>i think the november elections will tell how smart bush actually was to
>have given moore the interview in the first place.
>
>you can e-mail me privately if you want to continue this further.
>
>take care,
>
>daniel moeck
>
mike papa
if any of your hawk brothers or sisterss refuse to even see f11, i suggest
you have recommend they see "the fog of war eleven lessons from the life of
robers s. mcnamara" 2003 academy award winner for best documentary. it
never played anywhere convenient for me to see (in la?) so i purchased it
on-line. it is interviews with robert mcnamara the now elder statesman who
was secretary of defense during the vietnam war. as some of you may
remember as kids in school were told that "if we didn't stop communism in
vietnam the "dam" would break and it would spread "like a cancer" all over
the world". sounds much like the reasoning for fighting terror "over there"
that we have heard. "11 lessons" is spooky similar as to the logic,
information and intelligence mistakes that were made in vietnam being
repeated almost verbatim in iraq. i suggest this because none of my "we
had to do something" logic driven relatives (we are all related yes?) will
even see f11 and tend to charge off on tirads with reasoning and information
obtained from fox and limbaugh.

regards

mike
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