forgiveness and/or forgetting

[Olga]

I had a very interesting discussion last Sunday with the minister of the
metaphysical church I attend.

He said [about a parishioner that had done a *perceptual wrong*] ... I
forgive her, but I will not forget.

My point was that unless you also *forget*, there is no use in forgiving.

Comments ?

Blessings

Olga


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[happyyoga]

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=OScV2zmOtuGAga_R-HNPNSTZq5v9EtZC2rgL85TLFIzCRwfNCZgGPAclecgU117M9bJ 4s3E34mgUGHcu4Q), Olga <starwind.athena@v...> wrote:
> I had a very interesting discussion last Sunday with the minister .
>
> My point was that unless you also *forget*, there is no use in
forgiving.
>
> Comments ?
>
> Blessings
>
> Olga
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Olga, I think that is very true. To not "forgive" is to forget that
we create our part of our experience and our perceptions regarding
occurances and so on. We could forget that the person we are not
forgiving is our angel-friend who came to help us learn ...
something... maybe just forgiveness even. :)

Blissings! Glenna

[Sal Rachele]

--- Olga <starwind.athena@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=lsSYzU745ZMCd5aDSf_1UVkUI8pUeCG6wvcs6L E-GoAYJDeIG2IdGIVjnNxSQA67m3fvxugQd_PEeACLgX9X-BpJnA)> wrote:

> My point was that unless you also *forget*, there is
> no use in forgiving.

Sal here:
Olga, my perception (similar to A Course In Miracles)
is that ultimately, there's nothing to forgive.
Forgiveness is for the one doing the forgiving -- it
helps clear their mind of grievance(s) and victimhood
feelings.

When we expand our awareness beyond the little "I",
forgiveness becomes a moot point because whatever
"horrible" thing that so-and-so did to us becomes
soooooo insignificant in the larger picture. Our souls
are eternal, ever seeking out new experiences in an
infinite sea of worlds beyond worlds. When we come
from THAT perspective and realize so-and-so was simply
acting out his/her part in this little drama, it
becomes much easier to forgive, forget and move on.

--Sal




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[Jeremy Weiland]

> My point was that unless you also *forget*, there
> is no use in forgiving.

Huh - that's like the exact opposite of my take on
forgiveness. If I forget about the transgression, why
would I need to forgive?

Forgiving - but not forgetting - allows one to
*integrate* the experience rather than just gloss it
over. It allows one to learn from it. Forgiving
implies that judgement is not at work. If one
suspends one's need to decide whether to accept or
reject people, then memory of the transgression simply
becomes useful information (one should not simply
trust somebody who has broken that trust in the past
because that person is "forgiven"). Remembering that
information is not cumbersome to the forgiver's
spiritual growth.

However, remember that even not forgiving is a
catalytic event, since it puts in motion karmic
consequences that will balance the situation.

> Sal here:
> Forgiveness is for the one doing the forgiving -- it
> helps clear their mind of grievance(s) and
> victimhood feelings.

I agree 100%. Acceptance of reality and personal
responsibility for one's spiritual growth is expressly
different than supressing information at which does
not wish to look. :-)

Love and light,

Jeremy




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[bob_dunham]

I don't necessarily disagree here. But in all honesty in my
experience when I am truly able to forgive, forgetting the
transgression just comes naturally. Even with forgiveness,
remembering all these transgressions seems like a needless burden.
After I forgive and forget I feel more light hearted (jmho).


--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=KEskzgHcSZot5yEiXR6Fx-oyLoV7LeVPZJIGkZ8v9S7-LIroCK_EVLhfUuaiTGkJCzDFXR27kuqcT_Ackg), Jeremy Weiland <greenlantern113@y...>
wrote:
> > My point was that unless you also *forget*, there
> > is no use in forgiving.
>
> Huh - that's like the exact opposite of my take on
> forgiveness. If I forget about the transgression, why
> would I need to forgive?
>
> Forgiving - but not forgetting - allows one to
> *integrate* the experience rather than just gloss it
> over. It allows one to learn from it. Forgiving
> implies that judgement is not at work. If one
> suspends one's need to decide whether to accept or
> reject people, then memory of the transgression simply
> becomes useful information (one should not simply
> trust somebody who has broken that trust in the past
> because that person is "forgiven"). Remembering that
> information is not cumbersome to the forgiver's
> spiritual growth.
>
> However, remember that even not forgiving is a
> catalytic event, since it puts in motion karmic
> consequences that will balance the situation.
>
> > Sal here:
> > Forgiveness is for the one doing the forgiving -- it
> > helps clear their mind of grievance(s) and
> > victimhood feelings.
>
> I agree 100%. Acceptance of reality and personal
> responsibility for one's spiritual growth is expressly
> different than supressing information at which does
> not wish to look. :-)
>
> Love and light,
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2'
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[Jeremy Weiland]

> Even with forgiveness, remembering all these
> transgressions seems like a needless burden. After
> I forgive and forget I feel more light hearted
> (jmho).

No I totally agree. A lot of stuff to which we take
offense proves to be totally frivolous and not worth
keeping, once the forgiveness comes into play.
Definately, this is a point where the act of forgiving
is more beneficial for the self than otherself because
you are able to see things clearly. In many cases,
forgetting is the natural expression of the redefining
of values that forgiveness entails. I know I'm making
this too complicated :-)

I just didn't want somebody to think that forgiving,
say, your brother for stealing money meant that you
should forget he did it and therefore let him housesit
for you. Information has no judgement, and ultimately
it is that judgement which is released in forgiveness
- not least of all, judgement of self.

Jeremy




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[Olga]

At 09:32 AM 5/12/2004, Sal wrote:
>When we come from THAT perspective and realize so-and-so was simply acting
>out his/her part in this little drama, it becomes much easier to forgive,
>forget and move on.

That was my question, if one can forgive, without really forgetting.

Yes I studied ACIM also, even monitored it for a couple of years ... but in
the 70ies ... my memories of what it actually said are vague by now :))

And yes I remember it said that there was nothing TO forgive ... but our
little egos seems to get in the way ... and I fully understand egos SHOULD
NOT ... but as long as I am parked here in a chair, sending typed words,
and creating pixels over the internet, I am FAR FROM perfect ... I have
not ascended yet ...

Could you please share with me HOW *you* do it ?? Me thinks I have much yet
to learn ....

I think it is part of the same argument/discussion on another list we share
... that if someone bills themselves as a *real* spiritual teacher it is
reflected in their own lives ... being a *shady* character, and teaching
*spiritual truth* is mutually exclusive ... in MY Humble opinion it seems
so. But then what do I know :))

Blessings

Olga






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[Olga]

> > Sal here:
> > Forgiveness is for the one doing the forgiving -- it
> > helps clear their mind of grievance(s) and
> > victimhood feelings.
>
>I agree 100%. Acceptance of reality and personal
>responsibility for one's spiritual growth is expressly
>different than supressing information at which does
>not wish to look. :-)
>
>Jeremy

I also agree wholeheartedly about *forgiveness* , what I was questioning is
the *forgetting* part ... forgetting that the one you forgive ~to me~, is
part of the formula... after absorbing the lesson ...

The *event* the minister had talked of happened 5 years ago ...[and NO I
was not involved in the event] I guess it takes some longer than others to
learn <sigh>

Blessings

Olga




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[Alma Miranda]

I have been reading with interest. Let me put a bit of my perspective. I think
there is a part of things we should not forget such as how we feel when we are
hurt can be a catalyst for learning how not to behave. The fact that we forgive
does not mean remotely that we have to like a person. That is too hard.
Forgiveness has more to do with not hating or wanting revenge, at least for me.

Alma


I also agree wholeheartedly about *forgiveness* , what I was questioning is
the *forgetting* part ... forgetting that the one you forgive ~to me~, is
part of the formula... after absorbing the lesson ...

The *event* the minister had talked of happened 5 years ago ...[and NO I
was not involved in the event] I guess it takes some longer than others to
learn <sigh>

Blessings

Olga





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[HappyYoga@...]

The interesting thing is that we have forgotten... I mean we have forgotten
the bigger part of us...we have forgotten our roots - where we come from... and
in our forgetting we forget we are playing a "game" here with our Self... so,
when we really look at it, and see that everyone we are dealing with is
spirit and that we make many decisions that manifest in the physical... well,
for
me that is easier.

I can see that, yes, I may not be happy with so-n-so, I may not be happy with
what occurred, and I can even be angry or feel however I want to, but in the
deepness of it all, I like to remember that thing are not always as they
appear to be.

One thing that is not healthy, however, is to think I have no feelings about
something when I do.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Sal Rachele]

--- Olga <starwind.athena@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=2RKyE2m2rKBextEg6yBjTXV-K2I-IqQ-Jw80Eb8hH6m2o8TQEz6aVs0v_sZytih3_ZMOIghm21vveIjxqh APNRnbTNk)> wrote:

> Could you please share with me HOW *you* do it ?? Me
> thinks I have much yet to learn ....

Sal here:
Of course, Olga, we ALL have a lot to learn. Learning
never stops, IMHO.

The times when I am able to forgive in the manner ACIM
speaks of are the times when I consciously understand
that I am infinitely bigger than the issue. For
example, if someone were to say something insulting
about me, I can only get angry and resentful if I
believe I am my personality and/or body. If I know I
have infinite worth and value, then I am not truly
offended and can let it go.

Like all humans, I am somewhat identified with my
little self. The level of identification varies from
day to day, hour to hour, for probably all of us.

--Sal





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[Olga]

At 05:13 PM 5/13/2004, Sal you wrote:
>For example, if someone were to say something insulting
>about me, I can only get angry and resentful if I
>believe I am my personality and/or body

My way of dealing with this, is to firmly repeat to myself, aloud and/or
silently: "What anyone thinks of me is none of my business"

I forgot where that quote came from, but I have been using it at least 20
years. And it seems to work :))

Blessings

Olga

PS - thanks for giving an example




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[jimbo1122002]

> My way of dealing with this, is to firmly repeat to myself, aloud
and/or
> silently: "What anyone thinks of me is none of my business"

it truley is none of my business what they think of me..it is my
business what i think of me..i do not use my mind wrong,i dont use it
at all,it uses me.free me from my mind through enlightenment..love is
sooo good.thanx jimbo

[Luis Albanés]

Olga <starwind.athena@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=y2NJepkjhveLsr0Yoz3bGQrMXezS6_pfi8_Ey1 gT1Fz_6yOyWpar9GSIqyOuT3MLEk0e1AxhUJohGxuqIo6Dtqjd xDFi)> wrote:
At 05:13 PM 5/13/2004, Sal you wrote:
>For example, if someone were to say something insulting
>about me, I can only get angry and resentful if I
>believe I am my personality and/or body


Luis:

Let me share with you my formula:

This has worked like magic in really hard situations!

As said by Jesus: Father, forgive them, because they donÃà‚‚Âà ƒÂƒÃ‚ƒÃ‚‚´t know what they are
doing.-

Believe me, this is transmutes any ofense against you.-

Blessings

Luis




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mes.


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[HappyYoga@...]

In a message dated 5/13/2004 10:36:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
starwind.athena@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=L4LRh9Ep_kOc9WAbw-DjHkIoKR1RrczY1bHSFXZ3Cb7YOCxeLvajxYnANzfMeQzhaZxd HdLMWvbpseREW5Ka-mE8HgGF) writes:
My way of dealing with this, is to firmly repeat to myself, aloud and/or
silently: "What anyone thinks of me is none of my business"
That quote is from the title of a book by Terry Cole-Whittaker. She is/was a
religious science practitioner etc.
from San Diego. What You Think Of Me Is None Of My Business.

It is a great book, as are all of her books, I think.

Blissings! Glenna


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[HappyYoga@...]

I was remembering something yesterday, and thought I would mention it.

We often forget that forgiveness is really for ourselves. Those we do not
forgive are not harmed by our non forgiveness, by our thinking we can somehow
"cast them away" or our tossing up defenses.

Forgiveness is easier when we forgive ourselves, which is what we are truly
doing in each situation when we practice forgiveness anyway.

Blissings! Glenna


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Olga]

>My way of dealing with this, is to firmly repeat to myself, aloud and/or
>silently: "What anyone thinks of me is none of my business"

>That quote is from the title of a book by Terry Cole-Whittaker. She is/was a
>religious science practitioner etc.
>from San Diego. What You Think Of Me Is None Of My Business.

Of course Glenna !! Thanks I had forgotten .... and me a RS Practitioner !!!

I guess that's what they mean by getting old :((

Blessings

Olga




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[HappyYoga@...]

In a message dated 5/14/2004 10:15:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
starwind.athena@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=JkQmLnnsbzCFNH80QYsaP3r4kbVkYCQVGIs7tg Q7t_TdYXAMoAahGDtOLxWPQlyiTmiV0OEDyONqDfXA5r72WMc) writes:
Of course Glenna !! Thanks I had forgotten .... and me a RS Practitioner !!!

I guess that's what they mean by getting old :((

Blessings

Olga
hehe... well, we came here to "forget" so I would say we have all done a good
job! :)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[HappyYoga@...]

In a message dated 5/18/2004 2:53:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
airamil@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=oPgLBD8IGsJXCADSMrXsHEH_mloaz4IPVxzwx8 h2xLDtmpJ9x1ztwq9uqtcmIaSNrLJftT-Dx8Q4Vg) writes:
And sometimes
consequences are the only things that allow people to learn their
lessons.
Brent, for sure! We don't have to keep that person or thing in our life. I
like the phrase (in my head) "I release you to your higher good".

Blissings! Glenna


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Brett]

Hey Olga, my take on this is that not forgetting for oneself is so
that you are not used again by that individual. You can also say
that if you keep giving into that person who is taking advantage of
your good nature (by forgiving and forgetting), you are telling them
they can treat people badly without any consequences. And sometimes
consequences are the only things that allow people to learn their
lessons.

I think the focus of forgiveness is very freeing, it certainly
lightens the load and is said to be called the Law of Grace which
cancels out karma.

There is an exercise in the Ra Material about how to be a better
healer, one of them is to forgive and balance everything bad ever
done to you and everything bad you have ever done to another. That
in itself is very freeing. :)

Enjoy!

-Brett

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=4xyum8JuoOC3D69nD93_ttVUQ0t39_MWfccxDf x9eHW7gdvJBF3ND4afNqvZVn26xqlSlJN2UPxRAWEVHQ), Olga <starwind.athena@v...> wrote:
>I had a very interesting discussion last Sunday with the minister
>of the metaphysical church I attend. He said [about a parishioner
>that had done a *perceptual wrong*] ... I forgive her, but I will
>not forget. My point was that unless you also *forget*, there is no
>use in forgiving.
>
> Comments ?
> Blessings
> Olga