Response to Mr. Estes and members [Archive]

Rod Johnson

11-17-2000, 03:25 AM

<table bgcolor="#ffffff">
>i found a rule to live by that was not easy to master or rationalize away in the mundane arena of some of my states of consciousness.
>
>"it is exactly the same to take offence as it is to give offence."
>
>rod deebokonon
>
>as a note: according to kurt vonegutt jr, in the island dialect of san lorence, the term boko means the beloved. hence, in bible association it became the name john. the affix non is for son and nan is for daughter. therefore the term bokonon can mean beloved son or the name johnson. my middle name is dee and as for the term bokonon i qualify for both its meanings. 
<blockquote>
align="left" class="outlookmessageheader" dir="ltr">-----original message-----
from: david wilcock [mailto:djw333@exis.net]
sent: friday, november 17, 2000 5:37 pm
to: asc2k@egroups.com
subject: [asc2k] response to mr. estes and members


>some of you are new enough not to know the context for the email "catalyst from ufowarrior" that came in... however the majority of you will understand it and follow along with this response. others, if interested, can dig it out of the egroups message archives if interested. now we've got another trigger to elicit my continuing participation in this group - which so far has been predominantly my own updates! if ever the website should get this much love! (but wait, oh wait, for what you'll get with ciii...)
>
>first off i apologize to mr. estes for my having brought in information abouthis personallifewhen i was responding to what i felt were incredibly mean-spirited and hurtfulthings he had said against carla, jim and don, the core group who worked together to bring forth the teachings of ra. it is a fact that these personal items from their lives were shared, however naively,in the fifth book especially, which was published years after the first four,and that therefore they were introducing the possibility that someone would call attention to the "dirt." however, i did violate mr. estes' free will in the sense that at least as far as his website was concerned, (i do not know about his email group participation) he had not called public attention to the channeling being done in his own family. at the time i felt that it explained a lot - but in reality it doesn't matter and shouldn't be a factor... it will not be a factor in any future writings of my own. that's probably the main reason why he would want to chase my heels any further, and i do understand that. so,we haveno further conflict on that front and i will not be answering any further questions about it to any of you for this reason. 
>
>obviously whatever i write can be read by anyone - regardless of whether there any number of "secret agents" on this list or not, for whatever purpose or motivation. no one is being turned away. so by all means, bless you if you would like to occupy that role and this is your service.as this progresses we will see that i had gotten caught up in the intensity of his attack on a body of work that i hold dear and wrote my comments prematurely and from a less than perfect place - a legitimate mistake which i should have mentioned in this forum, and now have apologized publicly for. 
>
>am i upset at this email? no. this isn't going to be the last and i don't want any of you toget fired upeither. i have had my share of criticism and attack every step of the way - but i also have very strong allies who keep me on track. [phone rings] (now if that wasn't a synchronicity i don't know what is. at the exact second that i finished that sentence, i was thinking, "and joe myers is one of the best ones," and he called me. i told him what just happened and he laughed, affirming the "way things work." he'll be in town tomorrow and we're going to do lunch. the call was to tell me that his driving had been delayed and we wouldn't be able to connect up until tomorrow - thereby giving me the time to attend to this situation!)
>
>so please, please, please refrain from getting angry or feeling that you need to defend me. (yes, you gestalt psychoanalysts out there, i am also giving advice to myself!) let's not make this embarassing, with others speaking up for me and indulging in the same energy. i did judge estes, as he judged carla, jim and don, and i am sorry for continuing the cycle. he's already unsubscribed and our hacking at this issue will only cause disagreement among list members - and most of you are not now participating anyway. of course there was a bit of shock when i first saw it - and if any of you dislike my work or agree with his criticisms that's fine too. usually i don't let these things take my time or energy but the game changes with an unmoderated email list. 
>
>clearly i have to be careful what i say in any forum, even though it wasn't posted on my website. i need to remind myself that in many ways this list is just as public as the site itself and i should have equal quality controls and never speak flippantly. i had already decided to leave any discussion of estes' personal life out of the picture in any articles that i would put up to address the critiques. so i feel it is an unfortunate disappointment that i had jumped to post that data before checking myself further. the only real concern here is the validity of the words of ra, not the personalities involved - which is why i disagreed with a large degree of mr. estes' arguments in the first place, as many of them attack the people and do not deal with the quality of the material itself. and the ones that do attack the material can be argued with any number of choice quotes like the ones in the study guide - but i do not have the time to put into an effort like this right now. if someone can't see the value of ra's cosmology and spiritual path, then please - follow the advice in book iii and either "be of service or withdraw." 
>
>mr. estes has indeed gone on a personal crusade to attack the validity of the ra material, and obviously my own comments were almost guaranteed to provoke a response. i too have no interest in furthering this discussion in this forum, especially when mr. estes is already going to the point of including swear words in his letter. he has a right to be upset with me - and i felt i had a right to be upset with him. although carla and i have only spoken once in a direct phone conversation, i felt as though it were a family attack.
>
>of course, estes or anyone else could try to rip me up on the character level, if they so choose.a built-in feature of my "mission" on this planet is that there is a wonderful smorgasbord of things that skeptics and critics can use to assault my character. that probably is what increases my level of safety - my credibility can be wiped away in the eyes of most of the "mainstream" very quickly. i'm not denying that and someone could mount a personal attack with only a few hours of work. 
>
>however, as most of you are aware, my apparent reincarnational identity and / or the channeled work is only one portion of my talents - andreadings havebeen mainly on the "back burner" as far as my personal time and effort anyway.my mainwork is scientific in nature and can only be approached from that level for critiques. the areas that can be "attacked" bear no direct relevance to the material in convergence iii, as most of you have well seen by now. however, those who may not be ready for this sort of information would be thrown off-course by such a critique as this right off the bat - a sort-of built in safeguard of free will for those who would not be helped by reading it. 
>
>i'll only address the substantive points about myself here and then stop - as i am working on the quantum physics section of ciii now and hadn't intended on doing this nor really wanted to take the time - but we go with the flow. 
>
>it is true that my contact with mandelker was sporadic before mr. estes facilitated our contact. i had mandelker's business card in my wallet since i met him in 1996 and called him a few times a year since then. he always seemed busy but we kept in touch and always had great conversations, since both of us, like estes, have studied the books enough to call ourselves "experts." 
>
>interestingly, estes contacted me for my help in promoting scott's new book, which he had designed the cover art for and was helping to promote - and scott also asked me personally for help thereafter, due to the popularity of the site. now, of course,estes has completely cut off the contact with scott. it is indeed true that i asked scott to give me the mailing address for jeff rense, so i could have the opportunity to send him the book and let him decide if he wanted me on the show. scott did get the ok from rense to give me the address, i did send the book, and nothing more has happened. i certainly am not pushing it. 
>
>different people define the term "friend" in different ways - and i consider anyone i interact with and enjoy to be a friend. scott and i have grown in friendship and business partnership in the last six months and have been on the phone for hours and hours on several occasions in just the last month. 
>
>now get this! the truly ironic twist to estes' comments is that scott has appointed me as the research director for his workshop series that was recentlygiven ahealthy grantby a philanthropic foundation -- and i am also going to be one of the speakers as well. we are awaiting the final confirmations of the red tape before i post anything about it on the site. my participation in this workshop is certainly going to be substantial, and a great deal of the content of the workshop can and will be gleaned from material in convergence, and further aspects of research stemming from those seed ideas. i find it hard to believe that i am a "leech" to scott or his level of exposure if i am now in a pivotal role to bring this scientific / spiritual presentation out to the public! we're working as a team with others and my participation is key. 
>
>obviously i am not going to change anything on my site. a complete snapshot of the website is one of the features on the cd-rom that i will be mailing certain folks for my protection. i am not going to try to "hide" from critics or deny / sidestep any allegations- though this certainly cannot and should not be wherethe bulk of my time is invested, especially since i have a huge deadline ahead of me to finish ciii in the time i have proposed... 
>
>as for cayce's predictions. in first article of the "edgar cayce / website overview" section of the site i have posted the reading where the first reincarnation, centering on the year 1998, was indicated. it is reading number 294-151 and anyone can look it up on the cayce cd-rom, or find it in any of several books dealing with the ra-ta period.
>
>"it has long been known in the cayce circles that the readings issued a prophecy surrounding the return of himself and his associates in 1998. many people naturally assumed that this meant that he would either be born as a baby in 1998, or return as an ascended being. here is the actual text from reading 294-151, when this return was discussed:

is it not fitting, then, that these must return? as this priest may develop himself to be in that position, to be in the capacity of a liberator of the world in its relationships to individuals in those periods to come; for he must enter again at that period, or in 1998.<xml:namespace prefix="o" ns="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></xml:namespace><o:p></o:p>

[294-151] - 7 / 29 / 32, 11:00 a.m."

my interpretation of this prophecy, based on the available data, is that i am one of a large number of liberators, certainly not the only one, and that the focus on 1998 had to do with the timeline for when i would realize all the connections of facial appearance / astrology / spiritual mission, and take enough action on it to contact the are and put information out on the net. as mr. estes alluded to, it is also true that a future incarnation of cayce's was also indicated to him, first in a dream and then by the readings. it was proposed as 2158 a.d. in this dream, he was a young man and was approached by men in a cylindrical anti-gravity spacecraft who told him who he had been, and that they were going to get him up to date on what he had accomplished. they also took him to new york city and said that it had been destroyed by earth changes and was now being rebuilt.

so that's about it as far as any substantial critiques. to open up the pandora's box of trying to dismantle the complex arguments in the full convergence series would require quite a bit of specialized knowledge and would be quite a study for anyone - and i'm notbragging, as it is a long-term study to really "get" it. however, it would be interesting to get that negative feedback anyway, as it may increase the efficacy with which i write.

for those of you who aren't interested in hearing these types of discussions in the first place, my apologies. as for ra's statements about physical death and ascension, as i have already said, death is but a change - and if you transfer your awareness into the green-ray body and out of the yellow-ray chemical body, this is certainly not a bad thing. i had that obe at age five and was not in my physical body, but i felt perfectly fine - and until i got scared and popped back in, it was ecstatic! 

more is on the way about estes' critiques of ra but i'm not rushing it, as other priorities are higher on the list at this time. i would welcome those of us who do have some time to see how easily the quotes in the study guide can show the true essence of ra's message, which is the law of one! 

peace be with you -

- david

<tt>to unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
asc2k-unsubscribe@egroups.com

</tt>
</blockquote>

David Wilcock

11-17-2000, 05:37 PM

<table bgcolor="#ffffff">
>some of you are new enough not to know the context for the email "catalyst from ufowarrior" that came in... however the majority of you will understand it and follow along with this response. others, if interested, can dig it out of the egroups message archives if interested. now we've got another trigger to elicit my continuing participation in this group - which so far has been predominantly my own updates! if ever the website should get this much love! (but wait, oh wait, for what you'll get with ciii...)
>
>first off i apologize to mr. estes for my having brought in information abouthis personallifewhen i was responding to what i felt were incredibly mean-spirited and hurtfulthings he had said against carla, jim and don, the core group who worked together to bring forth the teachings of ra. it is a fact that these personal items from their lives were shared, however naively,in the fifth book especially, which was published years after the first four,and that therefore they were introducing the possibility that someone would call attention to the "dirt." however, i did violate mr. estes' free will in the sense that at least as far as his website was concerned, (i do not know about his email group participation) he had not called public attention to the channeling being done in his own family. at the time i felt that it explained a lot - but in reality it doesn't matter and shouldn't be a factor... it will not be a factor in any future writings of my own. that's probably the main reason why he would want to chase my heels any further, and i do understand that. so,we haveno further conflict on that front and i will not be answering any further questions about it to any of you for this reason. 
>
>obviously whatever i write can be read by anyone - regardless of whether there any number of "secret agents" on this list or not, for whatever purpose or motivation. no one is being turned away. so by all means, bless you if you would like to occupy that role and this is your service.as this progresses we will see that i had gotten caught up in the intensity of his attack on a body of work that i hold dear and wrote my comments prematurely and from a less than perfect place - a legitimate mistake which i should have mentioned in this forum, and now have apologized publicly for. 
>
>am i upset at this email? no. this isn't going to be the last and i don't want any of you toget fired upeither. i have had my share of criticism and attack every step of the way - but i also have very strong allies who keep me on track. [phone rings] (now if that wasn't a synchronicity i don't know what is. at the exact second that i finished that sentence, i was thinking, "and joe myers is one of the best ones," and he called me. i told him what just happened and he laughed, affirming the "way things work." he'll be in town tomorrow and we're going to do lunch. the call was to tell me that his driving had been delayed and we wouldn't be able to connect up until tomorrow - thereby giving me the time to attend to this situation!)
>
>so please, please, please refrain from getting angry or feeling that you need to defend me. (yes, you gestalt psychoanalysts out there, i am also giving advice to myself!) let's not make this embarassing, with others speaking up for me and indulging in the same energy. i did judge estes, as he judged carla, jim and don, and i am sorry for continuing the cycle. he's already unsubscribed and our hacking at this issue will only cause disagreement among list members - and most of you are not now participating anyway. of course there was a bit of shock when i first saw it - and if any of you dislike my work or agree with his criticisms that's fine too. usually i don't let these things take my time or energy but the game changes with an unmoderated email list. 
>
>clearly i have to be careful what i say in any forum, even though it wasn't posted on my website. i need to remind myself that in many ways this list is just as public as the site itself and i should have equal quality controls and never speak flippantly. i had already decided to leave any discussion of estes' personal life out of the picture in any articles that i would put up to address the critiques. so i feel it is an unfortunate disappointment that i had jumped to post that data before checking myself further. the only real concern here is the validity of the words of ra, not the personalities involved - which is why i disagreed with a large degree of mr. estes' arguments in the first place, as many of them attack the people and do not deal with the quality of the material itself. and the ones that do attack the material can be argued with any number of choice quotes like the ones in the study guide - but i do not have the time to put into an effort like this right now. if someone can't see the value of ra's cosmology and spiritual path, then please - follow the advice in book iii and either "be of service or withdraw." 
>
>mr. estes has indeed gone on a personal crusade to attack the validity of the ra material, and obviously my own comments were almost guaranteed to provoke a response. i too have no interest in furthering this discussion in this forum, especially when mr. estes is already going to the point of including swear words in his letter. he has a right to be upset with me - and i felt i had a right to be upset with him. although carla and i have only spoken once in a direct phone conversation, i felt as though it were a family attack.
>
>of course, estes or anyone else could try to rip me up on the character level, if they so choose.a built-in feature of my "mission" on this planet is that there is a wonderful smorgasbord of things that skeptics and critics can use to assault my character. that probably is what increases my level of safety - my credibility can be wiped away in the eyes of most of the "mainstream" very quickly. i'm not denying that and someone could mount a personal attack with only a few hours of work. 
>
>however, as most of you are aware, my apparent reincarnational identity and / or the channeled work is only one portion of my talents - andreadings havebeen mainly on the "back burner" as far as my personal time and effort anyway.my mainwork is scientific in nature and can only be approached from that level for critiques. the areas that can be "attacked" bear no direct relevance to the material in convergence iii, as most of you have well seen by now. however, those who may not be ready for this sort of information would be thrown off-course by such a critique as this right off the bat - a sort-of built in safeguard of free will for those who would not be helped by reading it. 
>
>i'll only address the substantive points about myself here and then stop - as i am working on the quantum physics section of ciii now and hadn't intended on doing this nor really wanted to take the time - but we go with the flow. 
>
>it is true that my contact with mandelker was sporadic before mr. estes facilitated our contact. i had mandelker's business card in my wallet since i met him in 1996 and called him a few times a year since then. he always seemed busy but we kept in touch and always had great conversations, since both of us, like estes, have studied the books enough to call ourselves "experts." 
>
>interestingly, estes contacted me for my help in promoting scott's new book, which he had designed the cover art for and was helping to promote - and scott also asked me personally for help thereafter, due to the popularity of the site. now, of course,estes has completely cut off the contact with scott. it is indeed true that i asked scott to give me the mailing address for jeff rense, so i could have the opportunity to send him the book and let him decide if he wanted me on the show. scott did get the ok from rense to give me the address, i did send the book, and nothing more has happened. i certainly am not pushing it. 
>
>different people define the term "friend" in different ways - and i consider anyone i interact with and enjoy to be a friend. scott and i have grown in friendship and business partnership in the last six months and have been on the phone for hours and hours on several occasions in just the last month. 
>
>now get this! the truly ironic twist to estes' comments is that scott has appointed me as the research director for his workshop series that was recentlygiven ahealthy grantby a philanthropic foundation -- and i am also going to be one of the speakers as well. we are awaiting the final confirmations of the red tape before i post anything about it on the site. my participation in this workshop is certainly going to be substantial, and a great deal of the content of the workshop can and will be gleaned from material in convergence, and further aspects of research stemming from those seed ideas. i find it hard to believe that i am a "leech" to scott or his level of exposure if i am now in a pivotal role to bring this scientific / spiritual presentation out to the public! we're working as a team with others and my participation is key. 
>
>obviously i am not going to change anything on my site. a complete snapshot of the website is one of the features on the cd-rom that i will be mailing certain folks for my protection. i am not going to try to "hide" from critics or deny / sidestep any allegations- though this certainly cannot and should not be wherethe bulk of my time is invested, especially since i have a huge deadline ahead of me to finish ciii in the time i have proposed... 
>
>as for cayce's predictions. in first article of the "edgar cayce / website overview" section of the site i have posted the reading where the first reincarnation, centering on the year 1998, was indicated. it is reading number 294-151 and anyone can look it up on the cayce cd-rom, or find it in any of several books dealing with the ra-ta period.
>
>"it has long been known in the cayce circles that the readings issued a prophecy surrounding the return of himself and his associates in 1998. many people naturally assumed that this meant that he would either be born as a baby in 1998, or return as an ascended being. here is the actual text from reading 294-151, when this return was discussed:

is it not fitting, then, that these must return? as this priest may develop himself to be in that position, to be in the capacity of a liberator of the world in its relationships to individuals in those periods to come; for he must enter again at that period, or in 1998.<xml:namespace prefix="o" ns="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></xml:namespace><o:p></o:p>

[294-151] - 7 / 29 / 32, 11:00 a.m."

my interpretation of this prophecy, based on the available data, is that i am one of a large number of liberators, certainly not the only one, and that the focus on 1998 had to do with the timeline for when i would realize all the connections of facial appearance / astrology / spiritual mission, and take enough action on it to contact the are and put information out on the net. as mr. estes alluded to, it is also true that a future incarnation of cayce's was also indicated to him, first in a dream and then by the readings. it was proposed as 2158 a.d. in this dream, he was a young man and was approached by men in a cylindrical anti-gravity spacecraft who told him who he had been, and that they were going to get him up to date on what he had accomplished. they also took him to new york city and said that it had been destroyed by earth changes and was now being rebuilt.

so that's about it as far as any substantial critiques. to open up the pandora's box of trying to dismantle the complex arguments in the full convergence series would require quite a bit of specialized knowledge and would be quite a study for anyone - and i'm notbragging, as it is a long-term study to really "get" it. however, it would be interesting to get that negative feedback anyway, as it may increase the efficacy with which i write.

for those of you who aren't interested in hearing these types of discussions in the first place, my apologies. as for ra's statements about physical death and ascension, as i have already said, death is but a change - and if you transfer your awareness into the green-ray body and out of the yellow-ray chemical body, this is certainly not a bad thing. i had that obe at age five and was not in my physical body, but i felt perfectly fine - and until i got scared and popped back in, it was ecstatic! 

more is on the way about estes' critiques of ra but i'm not rushing it, as other priorities are higher on the list at this time. i would welcome those of us who do have some time to see how easily the quotes in the study guide can show the true essence of ra's message, which is the law of one! 

peace be with you -

- david