Free Will [Archive] - Divine Cosmos Discussions

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bob_dunham

07-03-2002, 09:23 AM

Everyones always talking about free will but what is it anyway and do
any of us have it? I have free will to do a swan dive out my window,
but I will smash my face in. Even with my limited amount of
intelligence i can learn that jumping would not be a reasonalbe
choice. I would have to be stupid to excersize my free will. So do
only stupid people have free will? The results of this jump are
obvious - But to the enlightened being, the results to every flawed
action are obvious! Therefore, no free will unless you are stupid.
I can choose to kill someone- But if I weigh the concequesnces, and
understand the karma involved, its obviously a foolish choice in
regard to soul development - And the more you learn, you ask more
questions, and find that much of the time that you excersize your
free will, you know that certain concequences will cause pain and
discomfort, therefore to a logical rational being, there is only one
choice to make - That which creates harmony - Thus no free will! If
you go against the laws of the universe, you will most certainly face
much pain and anguish in the long run. Maybe we are free to feel
pain? If I know a choice will cause me pain in the long run, Im
going to choose to do something else - Thus the universe teaches
through causing pain doesnt it? Would you make all the positive
choices if you knew there were no concequences to choosing STS? You
can only have free will if there are no concequences. As stupid
human beings we may not "see" the concequences, but as we become
enlightned we see there is only one choice to make - Thus no free
will.........

Brian Cox

07-03-2002, 09:34 AM

<table>
>I think the capacity to visualize future possibilities gives us freewill. whether we use that capacity wisely or not is up to us...but we can use our imagination to experience future consequences of present actions, and make decisions based on those internal hypothetizations. this capacity to "see" futureconsequences of our decisions is what gives us freewill, imho, and what separates us from lower animals. 
>
>"each of us, a cell of awareness...imperfect and incomplete,
> genetic blends with uncertain ends...on a fortune hunt that's far too fleet..."
> -rush "freewill" (1979)
>
>-brian (still hanging in at worldcom) cox
>
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
class="OutlookMessageHeader">-----Original Message-----
From: bob_dunham [mailto:bob_dunham@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:24 AM
To: asc2k@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [asc2k] Free Will

<tt>Everyones always talking about free will but what is it anyway and do
any of us have it? I have free will to do a swan dive out my </tt></blockquote>

bob_dunham

07-03-2002, 09:49 AM

BCOX WROTE:
> whether we use that capacity wisely or not is up to us...

Yes! thats what i was getting at, only stupid people have free will -
Im glad someone sees it my way!

Sunny One

07-03-2002, 10:04 AM

--- bob_dunham <bob_dunham@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=Q49zOjK1NjeybhQRBWTsl2mFmXpkqinQA_Nswq-4g2_3B7_3HA4pU6g-z11ahnRbmQH4XeDzNxcl4FyWYf8)> wrote:
> BCOX WROTE:
> > whether we use that capacity wisely or not is up
> to us...
>
> Yes! thats what i was getting at, only stupid people
> have free will -
> Im glad someone sees it my way!
>
>
I prefer the agreement, "do your best."
Sometimes our best is apparently stupid,
but in the big picture, as time reveals,
it may end up being not so bad afterall,
sometimes we actually grow and learn
as a result of our stupidity.
This is tolerance for stupidity.

Pat

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Tiffani Boswell

07-03-2002, 11:23 AM

> BCOX WROTE:
> > whether we use that capacity wisely or not is up to us...
>
> Yes! thats what i was getting at, only stupid people have free will -
> Im glad someone sees it my way!

IMHO all people have free will not only stupid people while to some the way
they choose to use it might seem not so smart...
but then that gets into the whole issue of yoru higher self/ God programming
what you need to experience in this life...so if you "choose" that not so
smart it was probably to help you get to where you are going...and if it was
preprogrammed then do we really have free will...
and then there is the argument that free will is getting to choose the path
to get from point A to Point Z...some go straight there others jump from b
to l to c to r to c again etc....and that is the free will choice but it is
"ordained" if you will, that you will arrive..GLB pointed a quote out to me,
I believe from RA...that you cannot HALT this path...but you can slow it
down or something to that extent....

tiffani

Brian Cox

07-03-2002, 11:33 AM

<table>
>i dont agree that only stupid people have freewill. there are many 
>decisions in everyone's life that are not black and white, no matter
>how wise or "non-stupid" you are. 
>
>even if you think you are wise enough to not make any bad choices
>at all, you are still making a choice by not acting on those potential
>bad paths. you have the freewill to choose whether or not you are
>going to do something, even if you dont do anything you still have
>the capacity, so you still have the freewill. as opposed to acting
>totally on instinct, like a computer program reacting in the only way
>it is programmed. we are free to change or override our program
>as we go along.we may have some predestined paths that
>our higher self has chosen for us, but how we get there is still up to us. 
>
>do you really think you are so intelligent that you can clearly see
>every far reaching consequence of every one of your actions?
>
>
>"you can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice,
> if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice,
>you can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill,
> i will choose a path that's clear, i will choose freewill" 
> -rush "freewill" 
>
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
class="OutlookMessageHeader">-----Original Message-----
From: bob_dunham [mailto:bob_dunham@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:49 AM
To: asc2k@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [asc2k] Re: Free Will

<tt>BCOX WROTE:
> whether we use that capacity wisely or not is up to us...

Yes! thats what i was getting at, only stupid people have free will -
Im glad someone sees it my way!

</tt>

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Brian Cox

07-03-2002, 01:14 PM

<table>
>david, 
>
>that's strange, because according to all these rush lyrics sites:
>
>http://missy.reimer.com/lyrics/freewill.html
>
>http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/SongUnid/88C8D6AD95B2BD4E48256BBF0032C460
>
>http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?sid=%5C%EA%8D%AB(a%14%9C
>
>http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/PeWlyrics.htm#freewill
>
>
>it says "you can choose a ready guide..." etc
>
>geddy has been known to adlib a bit on actual vocal
>lines, contrary to what's written in the liner notes :)
>
>david, you catching any of this rush tour? i heard
>you were less than thrilled about your first disco
>biscuits show. i would suggest giving them another
>chance. :)
>
>-brian
>
>
>"we barely remember who or what came before this precious moment,
> choosing to be here, right now...
>hold on, stay inside this holy reality, this holy experience.
> choosing to be here in this body, this body holding me
>be my reminder here 
> that i am not alone in this body, this body holding me
>feeling eternal all this pain is an illusion..." -tool 'parabola'
>
>
>
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
class="OutlookMessageHeader">-----Original Message-----
From: David Wilcock [mailto:david@ascension2000.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:42 PM
To: asc2k@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [asc2k] Re: Free Will

<tt>From: Brian Cox

"you can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice,
if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice,
you can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill,
i will choose a path that's clear, i will choose freewill"
-rush "freewill"

DW: Just for the record, the lyrics actually say, "We can choose from many
guides in some celestial voice." Important distinction.

Nice thread, guys... :)

Peace be with you -

- David

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David Wilcock

07-03-2002, 03:42 PM

From: Brian Cox

"you can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice,
if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice,
you can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill,
i will choose a path that's clear, i will choose freewill"
-rush "freewill"

DW: Just for the record, the lyrics actually say, "We can choose from many
guides in some celestial voice." Important distinction.

Nice thread, guys... :)

Peace be with you -

- David

Leonard Zack

07-03-2002, 06:41 PM

<table bgColor="#ffffff">
>--- In asc2k@y..., "bob_dunham" <bob_dunham@h...> wrote:
And the more you learn, you ask more
> questions, and find that much of the time that you excersize your
> free will, you know that certain concequences will cause pain and
> discomfort, therefore to a logical rational being, there is only one
> choice to make - That which creates harmony - Thus no free will! 
>
>I agree. My interpretation offree-will runs this way:
>
>If, as The Course In Miracles claims, "God's Will for me is perfect happiness" (Woorkbook For Students, Lesson 101, p. 182), then can free-will be ought but the choice to choose otherwise? In other words, if I choose God's Will for me, did I really make a choice? Or, is it that I've just aligned my will with Hers? ;-) 
>
>My arguement relies on the premise that God's thought precedes my own, or where would the choice lie? What is free-will but choice? Or, if my thought were perfectly aligned with God's, then again, where would my choice lie?
>
>Let me give an example. We are all, no doubt, familiar with the Gospel story as related in the New Testament. You may ask, "Did Jesus serve God's Will when nailed to the cross?" Of course he did. Otherwise, being Self-Realized/God-Realized and enjoying so called "super" natural abilities, he could have given his persecutors the slip at any time. ;-)
>
>You might add, "Did he suffer, thereby?" Of course not, though we've been conditioned to believe, differently. We are led to believe that Jesus died/suffered for our sins in order that we might accept suffering as a condition to attaining God/Self-Realization, ourselves.

>One could argue that the Gospel story is just that: a story, without any historical significance. This does not diminish our arguement, for it is the essence that we're after. The Gospel story was given us, whether recounted or imagined,as an example of what we might, each of us,individually acheive. Like all good stories, the trick is to get us to suspend our disbelief long enough to allow a moment of inspiration.
>
>Now, I imagine, unless we were high initiates (in that case, would we, necessarily,belong to this list? ;-)), you and I might suffer miserably under similar circumstances. Would we, then, be serving God's Will? No, indeed. For how can happiness and misery exist simultaneously? Think of the thieves who hung beside Jesus. Surely they suffered because we don't even remember their names! So, it would appear that perfect happiness, andserving God's Willhave more to do with perception than anything else.That is, the only free-will choice we have in any given circumstance is how to perceive it.
>
>Let me add, to illustrate my point, also from The Course In Miracles:
>
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>Knowledge is power because it is certain, and certainty is strength. Perception is temporary. As an attribute of the belief in space in time, it is subject to either fear or love. Misperceptions produce fear and true percetions foster love, but neither brings certainty because all perception varies...
>
>All your difficulties stem from the fact that you do not recognize yourself, your brother or God. To recognize means to "know again," implying that you knew before. You can see in many ways because perception involves interpretation, and this means that it is not whole or consistent. The miracle, being a way of perceiving, is not knowledge. It is the right answer to a question, but you do not question when you know. Questioning illusions is the first step in undoing them. The miracle, or the right answer, corrects them. Since perceptions change, their dependence on time is obvious. How you perceive at any given time determines what you do, and actions must occur in time. Knowledge is timeless, because certainty is not questionable. You know when you cease to ask questions (Text, p.40).
></blockquote>
dir="ltr">To sumarize,ie "break it down, on the One y'all" (ala Prince): to know is to cease to question, to cease to doubt. And, what isfree-willbut a question of choice? Without questions or doubts, we move forward in perfect faith and perfect happiness, to fulfill our purpose, in alignment with God's Will for us, no doubt. ;-)
dir="ltr">
dir="ltr">My only hope in such a wordy exposition is that I helped shedsome light on your implied question, Bob.
dir="ltr">
dir="ltr">Love and blessings to all in this wonderful group!!
>
>
>Leonard Zack
Portland, Oregon
>

Tarzan

07-03-2002, 10:57 PM

<table>
><tt>but as we become
enlightned we see there is only one choice to make - Thus no free
will.........</tt>
><tt>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</tt>
><tt>I see your point, but I disagree.</tt>
><tt></tt>
><tt>As I understand it, Free Willwas not available in most Logos systems in the Universe, thus there weren't any stupid idiots tomake stupid choices; as a result, the beings who developed in those distortion-free worlds did not develop the levels of dynamism/energy that the Supreme Sovereign had hoped to see.</tt>
><tt></tt>
><tt>Then a Logo figured out thevalue of Free Will and the results have been nothing less than spectacular, producing new, dynamic Co-Creators with unprecedented levels of dynamism in record time--and this was surely the direct result of some of them making the silly mistakes of jumping out of high thingees, or any other acts of idiotic distortions.</tt>
><tt></tt>
><tt>Even in choices that are harmonious, Free Will is still paramount because of the always-available disharmonious choices that are avoided, thanks to wisdom playing its part. Wisdom is thesum total of the gems gleaned from the distortions suffered in one's bumpy return trip home.</tt>
><tt></tt>
><tt>As annoying the karmic repercussions from one's own and other's choices in the distortions created by unenlightened Free-Will choices made, I'd rather be in a realm of dynamism, than be in one which only harmonious choices can be made while one is not yet awakened to the Co-Creator within. Perhaps some may wish to be slow as slugs in soul growth, but not me.
</tt>
><tt>Seth</tt>

Crasher2ooo@...

07-04-2002, 03:38 AM

Hi Group...

Just wanted to make a few comments on the recent thread regarding free will...

Bob: Everyones always talking about free will but what is it anyway and do

any of us have it?



Free
Will is the first distortion of Intelligent Infinity, it allows the creator to experience itself... In 3D all other distortions of the one come forth from the primary distortion of free will. I would say all of us here in 3D have free will.

Bob: I have free will to do a swan dive out my window, but I will smash my face in. Even with my limited amount of intelligence i can learn that jumping would not be a reasonalbe choice. I would have to be stupid to excersize my free will. Therefore, no free will unless you are stupid. 

Regardless of whether you think jumping out of a window is a stupid choice or not, you could still do it if you wanted... and your decision not to is you exercising your free will.

Bob: Therefore to a logical rational being, there is only one choice to make - That which creates harmony - Thus no free will! 

The free will here lies in the entity choosing to be on the path that creates harmony... all the other rational logical choices the entity must make come from the entities free will decision to follow the path that creates harmony.

Bob: As we become enlightned we see there is only one choice to make - Thus no free will.........



As we become enlightened we become less distorted to the will of the creator, thus we see there is only one choice to make... but we still made the free will choice to seek enlightenment and try to align ourself with the will of the creator, and we always have the free will to be able to change that decision whenever we choose to.

Bob: Maybe we are free to feel pain? If I know a choice will cause me pain in the long run, Im going to choose to do something else - Thus the universe teaches through causing pain doesnt it?



I would say yes that is correct... pain is catalyst for learning, it is not the only catalyst but it is a powerful one none the less.

Leonard: My arguement relies on the premise that God's thought precedes my own, or where would the choice lie? What is free-will but choice? Or, if my thought were perfectly aligned with God's, then again, where would my choice lie?

Free will is choice, nothing more, nothing less... If your thought were perfectly aligned with God's the choice would lie with you choosing to align your thought with God's.

Leonard: You may ask, "Did Jesus serve God's Will when nailed to the cross?" Of course he did. Otherwise, being Self-Realized/God-Realized and enjoying so called "super" natural abilities, he could have given his persecutors the slip at any time. ;-)

Yes... Jesus may have been serving God's will but he exercised his own free will to choose to serve God's will.

Bob: Would you make all the positive choices if you knew there were no concequences to choosing STS? 

Yes... I exercising my free will to follow the STO path would choose to make positive choices even if there were no 'consequences' to choosing STS... Remembering that the STS path is also a path back to source, just as valid a choice as STO in the eyes of the creator, I would still make the same decision.

One thing I would add that may help in understanding of the isssue of free will is this... The main choice we exercise using our free will here in 3D is whether to follow the STO or STS path, depending on which path we take our choices thereafter are usually determined to a degree by the original choice of path to follow... this is mainly due to the fact that almost all choices we make can be 'labelled' as STS or STO and an entity is likely to make the decision that corresponds to the path they are following... but the entity at still has the utmost free will in choosing which path they wish to follow

Hope this helps, thanks Bob for bringing up the subject...

Robin.

lenzaq

07-04-2002, 11:44 AM

Hi Robin,

Thanks for replying to my post.:-)

> Leonard: My arguement relies on the premise that God's thought
precedes my
> own, or where would the choice lie? What is free-will but choice?
Or, if my
> thought were perfectly aligned with God's, then again, where would
my choice
> lie?

> Robin: Free will is choice, nothing more, nothing less... If your
thought were
> perfectly aligned with God's the choice would lie with you choosing
to align
> your thought with God's.

The distinction I am trying to make is a little more subtle. I am
saying that if your thought (will) were in perfect alignment with
God's thought(Will), then you have no choice. I am suggesting that
choice is THE CAUSE of seperation. If you would choose contrary to
God's Will, then you doubt, and therefore fall into seperation.

> Leonard: You may ask, "Did Jesus serve God's Will when nailed to
the cross?"
> Of course he did. Otherwise, being Self-Realized/God-Realized and
enjoying so
> called "super" natural abilities, he could have given his
persecutors the
> slip at any time. ;-)

> Robin: Yes... Jesus may have been serving God's will but he
exercised his own free
> will to choose to serve God's will.

I am saying that Jesus surrendered his free will/choice, never even
made a choice because he had faith in God's Will/Choice. There was
never any doubt on his part, save when at the point of passing he
said: "Why have You forsaken me, Father?" For a moment he doubted.

You are correct to assume that at some point he made a choice to
align himself with God's Will, a point where he surrendered his will.
That point was when he said, "Not my will but Thine."

(These quotes are from memory, and may not be accurate. :-)

Why do I feel these are important distinctions to make? See my
previous posts. I ask again, What but free will prevents us from
calling forth our Elder Brothers, the Masters of Wisdom, and our
Space Bbrothers who art in Heaven, even now, to our aid?

You see, free will (distortion) is sacrosanct. They cannot come
without the call/invitation/invocation. Free will, again, is our
choice to choose other than God's Will for us, which is perfect
happiness.

If we choose God's Will for us, ie surrender our will unto His, then
there are no longer any choices, no longer any questions, no longer
any doubts. We will be guided in all we do.

God's thoughts are our thoughts. Really, as David's work suggests,
there is only One Mind. We dupe ourselves into thinking we have a
choice, and that with choice comes power. But aren't we usurping the
Kingdom when we choose other than what God chooses, that somehow we,
with our limited perpsectives, should choose what God, with His
Omniscience, wouldn't choose for us? Power comes from surrendering
(to Love!!). And that's what, I'm convinced, the Gospel Story is
meant to portray.

One more comment to provide clarification. I have no illusion that
our Brothers in Heaven come to relieve us our burdens. That would not
serve any useful purpose. You can clean up after your children for so
long, but at some point they need to be taught to clean up after
themselves. This mess is of our own making. Maitreya, and the Masters
of Wisdom, come as guides and teachers, only. What will They teach?
The Law of One. The Christ principle is the embodiment of Love. And
Maitreya holds the office of the Christ. Imagine the leverage would
garner when His presence is known. He is the Light and shall shine
upon the Dark Lords (the Lords of Matter) exposing them for all they
are, with perfect Love and perfect Forgiveness.

King of kings, and Lord of lords
And He shall reign forever and ever and ever.

I, myself, do not think that this is lip service or the musings of
some crazed devotee.

Thanks Robin for your response.

Love to All,

Len

bob_dunham

07-05-2002, 06:59 PM

I origianlly wrote the free will post in reagard to some thoughts I
had been having. I try to reverse engineer my life in many ways.
What I mean by this is very simply I try to identify a catylist then
figure out why it is occuring. Im sure we all do this, but it is
very hard to figure out why certain catalists occur. I rack my brain
looking for the correct "answer," trying to figure out why certain
things are happening and what I am "supposed" to do. I think thats
where Im getting into trouble. I know I can do what ever I want, but
its like I want to make this unsceen force "happy." Like "ok, this
catalist is trying to teach my "x" so now I must learn some lesson to
make the catalist go away. I keep thinking that there is a correct
way to respond to every catalist and I want to figure out what that
is so I can grow and evolve as a person. Therefore I want to have
the insight that will allow me to make the decision most inline with
gods will or how ever you choose to put it. I jsut feel like if
there is a correct and appropriate responce to a catalist, I want to
know what it is, Im sick of being "stupid," and making mistakes.
Maybe thats the universes way of learning through me, but Im sick of
it. I want to be enlightned enough to know how to react, and evolve
more quickly. Im sure I just need to relax in silence, and
just "live," but sometimes I sense a possible seed of bittereness in
myself, due to the fact that I know I have free will to do what I
want, but that I really just want gods will and that im sick of using
my free will to make mistakes. That bitterness certainly has to do
with the whole separation thing, and must be worked on, hopefully I
can integrate some of the responses in this thread. Well anyway, Ive
learned a lot from all the responces to the original post, what a
great group we have here. peace.............

David Wilcock

07-06-2002, 01:45 PM

From: "bob_dunham"

>Like "ok, this
> catalist is trying to teach my "x" so now I must learn some lesson to
> make the catalist go away. I keep thinking that there is a correct
> way to respond to every catalist and I want to figure out what that
> is so I can grow and evolve as a person. Therefore I want to have
> the insight that will allow me to make the decision most inline with
> gods will or how ever you choose to put it. I jsut feel like if
> there is a correct and appropriate responce to a catalist, I want to
> know what it is, Im sick of being "stupid," and making mistakes.

DW: Sounds to me like you're trying to crash the gate! Best if you review
the "Healing Your Original Wound" reading once more, something like, "The
process of integrating the self involves repeatedly identifying a certain
inconsistency and healing it, and then later repeating the same process,
over and over again." Each time you do this you "iron yourself out" a little
more. I'd say it's almost impossible for anyone to outgrow the need for
catalyst while in 3D - at this stage we are really being put through our
paces so that we can get as much out of 3D as we can.

> Maybe thats the universes way of learning through me, but Im sick of
> it.

DW: Good! When you're sick of something you have enough motivation to make
the hard personal changes that are required. Reading your words from the
outside it appears that you subconsciously indulge in being a "victim" of
the whole spiritual growth process itself. Once you realize that there is no
"you," only the I AM that is in you, then perhaps you can overturn this
distortion. Right now you've still got it too externalized, in my opinion.

> I want to be enlightned enough to know how to react, and evolve
> more quickly. Im sure I just need to relax in silence, and
> just "live," but sometimes I sense a possible seed of bittereness in
> myself, due to the fact that I know I have free will to do what I
> want, but that I really just want gods will and that im sick of using
> my free will to make mistakes.

DW: You might be sick of it now, but you'll be thanking yourself in higher
densities when you see how far you were able to take it... :)

Peace be with you -

- David

Jeremy Weiland

07-06-2002, 02:03 PM

Hey Bob,
> I want to have
> the insight that will allow me to make the decision
> most inline with
> gods will or how ever you choose to put it. I jsut
> feel like if
> there is a correct and appropriate responce to a
> catalist, I want to
> know what it is, Im sick of being "stupid," and
> making mistakes.

I would second everything David said and also suggest
that you go a bit easier on yourself. As much of a
cliche as it is, mistakes are really the only way we
learn. That's why self-forgiveness and compassion for
the self and other-selves is so important. You're
never going to stop making mistakes, but you can learn
from them and take your failures in stride. Your
perfection/divine nature is not at question, so have
no fear that something will be lost; just keep trying
to understand your life and the signs you receive.
Also, perspective is critical when you're looking at
your life from the viewpoint of spiritual evolution.
Your human flaws are *not* the end of the world - just
the local obstacle course in your current state of
evolution. Really, that's all! So don't take it so
hard... :-)

Jeremy

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Tiffani Boswell

07-09-2002, 07:23 AM

I know I can do what ever I want, but
> its like I want to make this unsceen force "happy." Like "ok, this
> catalist is trying to teach my "x" so now I must learn some lesson to
> make the catalist go away. I keep thinking that there is a correct
> way to respond to every catalist and I want to figure out what that
> is so I can grow and evolve as a person.

Tiffani:
What little insight I have into this I hope helps...as I have been dealing
with some of the same issues as of late...
I think I can do this best with some quotes from RA and Qu'o...

"Yours is the last density with truly adverse conditions for the positive,
or service to others oreiented person. Only in this density, the density of
choice, does this occur. Know then, that this which is in front of you is
not more than you can work with, is not that which defeats; you would not
program that for yourself. But you are stretching yourself, because you
wish to change, you wish to become even more polarized in love and service
to teh Creator and others than you are now."

about..thinking if there is a correct way to respond (begging the opposite
that there would be an "incorrect way" if there was a correct way)
" You cannot go away from the right path, for those lessons that you came
to explore, those lessons of how to love and how to allow being loved, are
fluid and living and they can move with you wherever you go. So in the
sense of making tragic errors we ask you to be fearless. You cannot make a
mistake, metaphysically speaking, for your lesson and yoru destiny shall
follow you wherever you are moved to go...
....................and it is safe, we feel, to say that this destiny is
benign and helpful one, worth y of faith and trust and, to some extent, able
to be made visible by the seeker who is willing to listen and feel and
intuit and truly , in each way that you ucan, simply pay attention. For as
the way with the Creator is overwhelming, there are signs on every side,
synchronicities, coincidences that mount up rapidly when one is payin
attention."

Therefore I want to have
> the insight that will allow me to make the decision most inline with
> gods will or how ever you choose to put it.

"...the entity begins to realize that much of reaching cannot be done in
any environment except the environment of the silent, seeking heart." and
we know how much David, RA, and plenty of others seek to let us know that
meditation is the key here...I am getting that one from every direction...

"Meditation is the most efficient means of discovering those portions of the
self which seek to make themselves known to the conscious mind, so that the
unconscious mind might grow further in its grasp of understanding of unity
with all that is."

"Meditation is passive learning. Tabernacling with the one infinite Creator
is passive learning. It is the learning from listening to the voice one
cannot hear which answers questions which one cannot ask."

And then I always ask after reading all these quotes and hearing people well
HOW...and what happens when this or that happens ( itchy
arms....distractions...way way too many thoughts) oh and how eloquent are
the words of Qu'o that speak directly into this...

" If one is simply mindful, and notes, without emotion or condemnatio, each
thought that moves through, allowing it to arise, allowing it to dissolve,
then meditation has done that which it was intended for. It has allowed the
entity to step back from the trees and see the forest."

Ok this was not to be a "book" on meditation...:) so I will continue...

I jsut feel like if
> there is a correct and appropriate responce to a catalist, I want to
> know what it is, Im sick of being "stupid," and making mistakes.

Again there are no "mistakes".... That is soooo hard for me to grasp right
now as well...but this is one way I look at it...if you will not focus on
this "catalyst" but think of another one that you have gone through...and
even if you "think" you made a mistake...everything always seems to work out
for good...albeit two days or two years...that is the flow of destiny around
you...that is the perfection and rhythm as I see it of all of creation...you
have a certain path and choices in this incarnation...and there is free
will...but what is beautiful about that is if you "choose" everything around
you moves but is still in "perfect harmony" Qu'o has compared it many times
to you being your own sun and therefore everyone around you is there own sun
in their own galaxy...and just think of what we know of the rhythms and
timing and perfection of how our galaxy spins and moves...and think about
that we as humans are spinning and moving among eachother all the time and
it is always in perfect rhythm...to me... atleast AGAIN THIS IS JUST
MYOPINION...i am very early in my seeking...but that has been a beautiful
analogy to me...

> Maybe thats the universes way of learning through me, but Im sick of
> it. I want to be enlightned enough to know how to react, and evolve
> more quickly.

Oh Oh...what is interesting for me...is I thought I started "searching" for
truth because possibly "understanding" was attainable...and I do believe
more and more and more understanding is always attainable...but as RA and
Qu'o say UNDERSTANDING IS NOT OF THIS DENSITY...
that was a little frustrating to me...and I realized I was seeking outside
of how I grew up and believed then to "understand" in as much as there was
an underlying discomfort that something wasn't right...and I was more
looking to move directly into that Intelligent Energy directing my
life...(does that make sense a little)

Im sure I just need to relax in silence, and
> just "live,"

Yes! Just try even meditating 5 minutes a day / twice a day at first...
was reading last night Qu'o said this is fine and even went as far to say
unless you are really "advanced" spiritually...30 minutes (15
morning/evening) is COMPLETELY sufficient...as meditation brings change and
insight and even if it seems short we have created a huge inflow of the
Creator....and sometimes our physical cannot keep up .... as i understand
it...

but sometimes I sense a possible seed of bittereness in
> myself, due to the fact that I know I have free will to do what I
> want, but that I really just want gods will and that im sick of using
> my free will to make mistakes.

wow .. that is where faith comes in...

"If you can trust destiny enough to release the attempts to control it, the
natural waves of energy moving out from teh center of that kindly destiny
which is each seeker's will gradually take that seeker upon the path and in
the direction which is deeply desired."

"The greatest wisdom that you shall ever learn in your density at this time
ist hat you cannot know anything; in other words, that your incarnation is
based completely upon faith. You are on a journey in unchartered waters and
your intellect will not be able to be so wise as to steer your spiritual
journey. Many mistakenly attempt to live a spiritual life coming from teh
intellect and from wisdom. However, this energy does not make use of the
open heart, and it will not take you far. And those seas into which it
ptiches you will be as confusin as the seas you left behind to seek for
wisdom. It isour understanding, rather, that your density is a starkly
simple stage set for making one choice again and again and that is the
choice to love and to be loved."

I truly hope that helps a little bit....
BLESSINGS AND LOVE TO YOU!

Tiffani

That bitterness certainly has to do
> with the whole separation thing, and must be worked on, hopefully I
> can integrate some of the responses in this thread. Well anyway, Ive
> learned a lot from all the responces to the original post, what a
> great group we have here. peace.............
>
>
>
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>

chesheyer

07-22-2002, 05:42 PM

At a spiritual discussion group I attended yesterday. My friend read
from a book that spoke of free will, I'll have to find out what the
name of the book was but I do remember the message about free will......
" Our free will ultimately is to will the will of God."
~chesheyer~
--- In asc2k@y..., Crasher2ooo@a... wrote:
> Hi Group...
>
> Just wanted to make a few comments on the recent thread regarding free
> will...
>
> Bob: Everyones always talking about free will but what is it anyway
and do
> any of us have it?
>
> Free
> Will is the first distortion of Intelligent Infinity, it allows the
creator
> to experience itself... In 3D all other distortions of the one come
forth
> from the primary distortion of free will. I would say all of us here
in 3D
> have free will.
>
> Bob: I have free will to do a swan dive out my window, but I will
smash my
> face in. Even with my limited amount of intelligence i can learn that
> jumping would not be a reasonalbe choice. I would have to be stupid to
> excersize my free will. Therefore, no free will unless you are stupid.
>
> Regardless of whether you think jumping out of a window is a stupid
choice or
> not, you could still do it if you wanted... and your decision not to
is you
> exercising your free will.
>
> Bob: Therefore to a logical rational being, there is only one choice
to make
> - That which creates harmony - Thus no free will!
>
> The free will here lies in the entity choosing to be on the path
that creates
> harmony... all the other rational logical choices the entity must
make come
> from the entities free will decision to follow the path that creates
harmony.
>
> Bob: As we become enlightned we see there is only one choice to make
- Thus
> no free will.........
>
> As we become enlightened we become less distorted to the will of the
creator,
> thus we see there is only one choice to make... but we still made
the free
> will choice to seek enlightenment and try to align ourself with the
will of
> the creator, and we always have the free will to be able to change that
> decision whenever we choose to.
>
> Bob: Maybe we are free to feel pain? If I know a choice will cause
me pain
> in the long run, Im going to choose to do something else - Thus the
universe
> teaches through causing pain doesnt it?
>
> I would say yes that is correct... pain is catalyst for learning, it
is not
> the only catalyst but it is a powerful one none the less.
>
> Leonard: My arguement relies on the premise that God's thought
precedes my
> own, or where would the choice lie? What is free-will but choice?
Or, if my
> thought were perfectly aligned with God's, then again, where would
my choice
> lie?
>
> Free will is choice, nothing more, nothing less... If your thought were
> perfectly aligned with God's the choice would lie with you choosing
to align
> your thought with God's.
>
> Leonard: You may ask, "Did Jesus serve God's Will when nailed to the
cross?"
> Of course he did. Otherwise, being Self-Realized/God-Realized and
enjoying so
> called "super" natural abilities, he could have given his
persecutors the
> slip at any time. ;-)
>
> Yes... Jesus may have been serving God's will but he exercised his
own free
> will to choose to serve God's will.
>
> Bob: Would you make all the positive choices if you knew there were no
> concequences to choosing STS?
>
> Yes... I exercising my free will to follow the STO path would choose
to make
> positive choices even if there were no 'consequences' to choosing
STS...
> Remembering that the STS path is also a path back to source, just as
valid a
> choice as STO in the eyes of the creator, I would still make the same
> decision.
>
> One thing I would add that may help in understanding of the isssue
of free
> will is this... The main choice we exercise using our free will here
in 3D is
> whether to follow the STO or STS path, depending on which path we
take our
> choices thereafter are usually determined to a degree by the
original choice
> of path to follow... this is mainly due to the fact that almost all
choices
> we make can be 'labelled' as STS or STO and an entity is likely to
make the
> decision that corresponds to the path they are following... but the
entity at
> still has the utmost free will in choosing which path they wish to
follow
>
> Hope this helps, thanks Bob for bringing up the subject...
>
> Robin.

Jeremy Weiland

08-12-2002, 06:42 AM

> If one submits to the higher self and 5,6,7D and
> above vibrations, will ceases to exist as the
> divinity/spirit has risen above the polarities and
> duality there is no longer the experience, drama,
> plan required. In pure Spirit the notion of "free
> will" begs the question.

Well, it brings to mind a quote from A Course in
Miracles:

Free will doesn't mean you can choose the lessons. It
only means you can choose when you will learn the
lessons.

Since the higher self operates outside of our time
structure, it does not experience the disconnect that
allows us to have the opportunity for
misunderstanding. This opportunity to choose between
unity and separation is what makes free will free. It
doesn't mean the end isn't certain, it just means that
the time it takes you to return to unity is variable,
although finite.

L/L

Jeremy

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John Seymour

01-21-2006, 04:10 PM

Tobey Wheelock

01-21-2006, 06:49 PM

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=40rY7HMYCuGci9IjxfBwL7OHaibbOcSMFjJjNy r3bGuIJR5UK4I0NS_Ial8mtwopxoeDkjJ-eIe5eoxCz_5nAw), "John Seymour" <cococube11@c...> wrote:
> But, why would it be against the questioner's free will if they want
> to know?

Hi John and everyone,

Good question.

Ra defined the first distortion (free will) by saying "in this
distortion ... it is recognized that the Creator will know Itself."

I think it perhaps not inappropriate to understand "know Itself" to mean
"penetrate Its mystery." If another, no matter how well-meaning,
penetrates my mystery for me, haven't they taken away something
fundamental from me? Partly that's because the act of discovering
Oneself is also the act of choosing Oneself.

A specific example: in session 25, Carla asked "how may Don and Jim help
revitalize me?" If Ra had given a full answer, it/they would have taken
away Don and Jim's ability to discover that information for themselves,
and the seeking and polarizing that would have entailed.

I'm guessing that the fact that provision of information can cause
infringement is a function of our third-density architecture, in which
the conscious mind is carefully veiled from the subconscious so that we
may choose. It is possible to lift the veil, but usually only after
diligent seeking. If one from beyond the veil, such as Ra, lifts the
veil for us it can have the effect of making our choice obvious to us,
while the whole point of this density is that the choice must be made
blindly, by faith alone.

My thoughts anyway.

L/L,
Tobey W.

amilius2001

01-21-2006, 07:11 PM

John, You ask, with regard to deference shown by Ra:

But, why would it be against the questioner's free will if they
want to know?

Among the questions left for humanity to discern so that it might
accord it greater appreciation is the nature of self determination in
the face of seemingly mutually exclusive experiences of
predestination. Ra understands that this discovery is among the
purposes for which humanity has chosen the Game of Life on Gaia. If
Free Will exists, as each of us is aware it does, then in what context
might predestination also exist? Allow me to offer the answer I one
got in meditation on this very question.

The only thing predestined by the Universe is Absolute Joy. We all
have the Free Will to avoid it.

It's a puzzle. All puzzles are Graciously Organized Design.

Namaste, Amilius

Elmer

01-22-2006, 09:13 AM

Well put Tobey!

Tobey Wheelock <asc2k@... (/group/asc2k/post?postID=96epxNppbUibxCgvC54TjR8DpPq2obBi-ynhDMcwogZdkrVdomUS_qzrYMGSD9SLFL39IMz0SqX4ZcXa4QI )> wrote: If one from beyond the veil,
such as Ra, lifts the
veil for us it can have the effect of making our choice obvious to us,
while the whole point of this density is that the choice must be made
blindly, by faith alone.

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

amilius2001

01-22-2006, 11:57 AM

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=lXEbRk1Gck5aKQTZLaniniWwxcErrQjkHrxvM7 4KKzElz7hrV456bTCiQgjDUyu0NzrZN9xJpq3UWlg), "Tobey Wheelock" <asc2k@l...> wrote:
If one from beyond the veil, such as Ra, lifts the
> veil for us it can have the effect of making our choice obvious to us,
> while the whole point of this density is that the choice must be made
> blindly, by faith alone.

Might it be that overlooking the obvious process at play, such that it
accords purpose to 'faith', is what blinds one to the 'One Truth'? We
are all One. We imagine otherwise. We choose to do so for the
purpose of experience. We chose this before incarnating as unaware. It
would ill serve One's owned experience to place faith in 'someone
beyond the veil', overlooking one's own experience in the process.
Observant faith in one's own experience is the fortitude upon which
expanding awareness might be built. Such faith is not blind. It is
about awareness accorded the concepts and context of chosen
experience. As such, Ra avoids anything that might endorse further
distortions of purposeful 'blind' faith. Ra is a gracious entity who,
within the Graciously Organized Design of the One Creator, allows us
to share that which might serve us in expanding awareness. Namaste.

John Seymour

01-22-2006, 02:15 PM

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=1HxjGs9DrXEh7ZhBmGvD94T8oOwYAnQ88suKh-Fu36GQtDxTD0vyORs0NjswbN_bihjEoYKD2hBG6Umx), "Tobey Wheelock" <asc2k@l...> wrote:
If one from beyond the veil, such as Ra, lifts the
> veil for us it can have the effect of making our choice obvious to us,
> while the whole point of this density is that the choice must be made
> blindly, by faith alone.

--

J: Thanks - its a little clearer now. But I'm still a bit confused, and
maybe it has to do with free will on a more day to day basis between
people. I'll give another cheesy example :)

Let's say there's Person A, a normal guy, and Person B, who's
paralyzed/mute/whatever, and can't do anything. Person A decides he
wants to help Person B so he takes him to the beach, even though Person
B desperately does not want to go. The problem is that Person A has no
idea that Person B doesn't want go, because Person B can't communicate
to him that he doesn't.

Another example (using the same people as above):

Let's say that Person B is sitting somewhere but, unknown to him, he's
is in a life-threatening situation. Person A decides to move Person B to
safety, but Person B didn't want to move from that location.

Last example (using same people as above):

This time it's the same as above - Person B is in a life-threatening
situation, but this time he knows it yet it is still his desire to stay.
Person A, though, moves him to safety.

I'm really not sure if these examples make sense in the context of free
will, because I think perhaps my understanding of it in general isn't
correct. The last few posts have helped to make it clearer, but the
image is still blurry.

May The Eternal Sun Shine Upon You
- John

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

* Zia

01-22-2006, 03:27 PM

I've been curious lately about the concept of free will according to the
LoO. I'll start with an example that should lead to somewhere around
where I'm confused:

On various occasions during questionings of Ra and those in the readings
on L/L Researches site, it seems there are a few instances where a
question won't be answered or given in full in order to preserve free
will. But, why would it be against the questioner's free will if they
want to know? There are a few things like that which are getting me
confused on the concept of free will here, but I'll leave it at that for
now to take it one step at a time.

HI John :) what a great question. I have sought to study this concept
myself, and have actually been told precisely what you said above. Part of
Free Will that goes hand in hand with Free Will is being veiled. The
veiling is like a forgetting. We have forgotten who we are (by choice in
coming here) and thus initially Free Will allows us to continue to forget
who and what we are! And that really is the game of 3d reality :) To
remember who and what we are! Wow we are literally on a treasure hunt, and
in time can discover where that treasure really is....

If someone came along and told you the BIG PICTURE, the whole outcome, why
then the game is all over! And maybe, just maybe, you were having a
wonderful time in the exploration and process of discovery, and sometime
took that away by telling you everything :) It's sort of like keeping a
secret when we are young :) And someone goes and tells it all... then the
game is up!

It is your choice to discover that you are a creator God made in the image
of the Great Creator of All that is! That image just might be a MIND, and
that MIND just might be inside of you, thus God is in all of us :) Yet you
have to find it, explore and work out how to go about creating whatever you
desire to experience :) As you do this, of your own free will choice, you
remember who you are, and see that demonstrated in your own life, and that
is what provides acceptance. Then we are ready for perhaps a bigger
sandbox, alot more knowledge and greater tools of creation :)

And what is the purpose of that? Well, in my own words, we are God's
children, mirror image of God, and as we explore, experience and apply
knowledge to that experience, we gain WISDOM :) That is the incredible
gift. We are expanding God's wisdom through our own adventures, we get it
and God expands all of Life as well with that wisdom. One's unique
perspective gained through experiencing its own creation, expands ALL OF
CREATION! Wow... that's a pretty big picture :) That is the greatest gift
we can give ourself, and give back to our Creator. If everything was
already known, what would you do? That sounds rather boring to me :) Z

ps. There was a fabulous Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode, of when Cisco was
in the wormhole, and met the Orb Entities there, that helped him overcome
the death of his wife. Cisco defended Free Will and the Veiling when he
said in explanation of Not Knowing an Outcome, that if you knew what was
going to happen in watching the base ball game, well why would you bother to
watch or even bother to play???? It was all about CHOICES!!!! Our Creator
God knows everything, and we are dancing across time catching up, with the
opportunity to expand that knowingness, returning to God with all the
adventures and wisdom gained therein :) Imagine the potentials when we each
have a choice in every second/moment of what we would experience??!!

I know I must be missing something lol, so forgive me of my current lack
of understanding right now :)

May The Eternal Sun Shine Upon You!
- John

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yahoo! Groups Links

* Zia

01-23-2006, 12:44 PM

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=3c5SWgf8z31-YBSHX7SCiVUIsIXXLm3EsMfI3XAZw_bZTnwsktfZ1HX2BedJGu 7haEUfwHacPbsTU4ryKg), "Tobey Wheelock" <asc2k@l...> wrote:
If one from beyond the veil, such as Ra, lifts the
> veil for us it can have the effect of making our choice obvious to us,
> while the whole point of this density is that the choice must be made
> blindly, by faith alone.

HI Tobey and John :) I am not certain Tobey that 'choice must be made
blindly'. Perhaps it is US that are blind, because we do not perceive the
signs that are all about us, nor have we sought within for the guidance that
is ALWAYS there, yet may not hear or see it :) That 'faith' as I see it is
in trusting the 'intuitive knowingness' that flows through from within all
things in a sense :) Divine reasoning is our inherent nature, connecting
with that is the challenge. I recall RA talking about the necessity of
abstract thinking ability. What does that mean? Being able to put the
pieces of the puzzle together to see the whole picture, and then voila, we
KNOW!

"Ra: I am Ra. There is one necessity for third density. That necessity is
self-awareness, or self-consciousness. In order to be capable of such, this
chemical complex of body must be capable of the abstract thought. Thus, the
fundamental necessity is the combination of rational and intuitive thinking.
This was transitory in the second-density forms operating largely upon
intuition which proved through practice to yield results." Session 19.
and..

"Ra: I am Ra. The lobes of your physical complex brain are alike in their
use of weak electrical energy. The entity ruled by intuition and impulse is
equal to the entity governed by rational analysis when polarity is
considered. The lobes may both be used for service to self or
service-to-others. It may seem that the rational or analytical mind might
have more of a possibility of successfully pursuing the negative orientation
due to the fact that in our understanding too much order is by its essence
negative. However, this same ability to structure abstract concepts and to
analyze experiential data may be the key to rapid positive polarization. It
may be said that those whose analytical capacities are predominant have
somewhat more to work with in polarizing.

The function of intuition is to inform intelligence. In your illusion the
unbridled predominance of intuition will tend to keep an entity from the
greater polarizations due to the vagaries of intuitive perception. As you
may see, these two types of brain structure need to be balanced in order
that the net sum of experiential catalyst will be polarization and
illumination, for without the acceptance by the rational mind of the worth
of the intuitive faculty the creative aspects which aid in illumination will
be stifled." Session 49.

John: This time it's the same as above - Person B is in a life-threatening
situation, but this time he knows it yet it is still his desire to stay.
Person A, though, moves him to safety.

*Ahhh the conundrum of Free Will. I would consider a number of factors
here. First: from the quantum perspective, all potentials are
simultaneously existing. A has the choice of the potential it desires to
experience, and if not in agreement with B, then B has the potential of an
entirely different experience, yet in A's reality, B's life is saved. Now
how mind-boggling is that! Yet all realities are playing out simultaneously
as well! The CHOICE is then in what I would experience.

In making that choice, God is about LIFE, life and more life, the
ongoingness of Life! That is our choice, to live, and then the quality of
the experiences of Life. It is really only in 3d that we can make such a
choice it would seem, because in 4d and above we do NOT die! So the person
choosing to die, is choosing to escape for some reason :) rather than
complete their Soul agenda for this lifetime. REcognizing that this would
simply mean returning and often with a greater load in a sense, to assist
one to choose to remain in Life has a perhaps greater value :) In
service-to-others that from a higher perspective IS mySELF, I am choosing
Life, in alignment with Love/Light Light/Love in that service! Perhaps in
choosing Life for ALL, we ALL go forward :) Z

Tobey Wheelock

01-23-2006, 02:18 PM

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=qd8RkpECe2VyrgIzBaq1MiQjVqYl4QaRrEpopo 2AioQZqOO_2XdENIHwzOHhomn8ALlQRngXD1D4zXpZ_NQ), "John Seymour" <cococube11@c...> wrote:
>
> Let's say there's Person A, a normal guy, and Person B, who's
> paralyzed/mute/whatever, and can't do anything.

I'm having trouble formulating a general response to these examples,
because they all deal with what seems to me to be such a specialized
case. Can you think of any other scenarios that might be more widely
relevant?

Thanks,
Tobey W.

Tobey Wheelock

01-23-2006, 03:44 PM

Hi Zia and everyone,

Wow, talk about synchronicities: I just posted that quote in a thread on
the forums at bring4th.org. Too cool.

I guess when I talk about the choice being made blindly I'm thinking
about the archetype of the fool (or the Choice as Ra calls it), which is
portrayed as a blindfolded (or blind) man. See, for example,
http://www.sheek.com/studiesinra/images/Arcanum22.gif . I would say that
the processes that you are describing, of intuition informing
intelligence and of analyzing abstract data, have more to do with the
archetypes of potentiation (the High Priestess) and experience (the
Emperor).

So it is indeed us that are blind, and that's as it is supposed to be.
And yes, the guidance is indeed always there. However, we don't know
that (until we do :)) And once we find it, we have no reason to trust
it, other than that intuitive knowingness that it is right. So the
seeking of it, and the following of it, are indeed acts of faith. And
after a while the life lived in faith becomes automatic, unquestioned,
which is the enviable state that you seem to find yourself in, Zia.

L/L,
Tobey W.

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=wnfHaW4U5lZ8v3xL_IS0iiS16NA5GCK6077H2t r-yLolcEWxFspPm2Kivp0hrPicfftvLeDByUD6NUZmvUZSyw), "* Zia" <zia_19@h...> wrote:
>
> HI Tobey and John :) I am not certain Tobey that 'choice must be made
> blindly'. Perhaps it is US that are blind, because we do not
perceive the
> signs that are all about us, nor have we sought within for the
guidance that
> is ALWAYS there, yet may not hear or see it :) That 'faith' as I
see it is
> in trusting the 'intuitive knowingness' that flows through from
within all
> things in a sense :) Divine reasoning is our inherent nature,
connecting
> with that is the challenge. I recall RA talking about the necessity of
> abstract thinking ability. What does that mean? Being able to put the
> pieces of the puzzle together to see the whole picture, and then
voila, we
> KNOW!
>
> <snip>
>
> The function of intuition is to inform intelligence. In your
illusion the
> unbridled predominance of intuition will tend to keep an entity from
the
> greater polarizations due to the vagaries of intuitive perception.
As you
> may see, these two types of brain structure need to be balanced in
order
> that the net sum of experiential catalyst will be polarization and
> illumination, for without the acceptance by the rational mind of the
worth
> of the intuitive faculty the creative aspects which aid in
illumination will
> be stifled." Session 49.

John Seymour

01-23-2006, 07:18 PM

> Let's say there's Person A, a normal guy, and Person B, who's
> paralyzed/mute/whatever, and can't do anything.

>I'm having trouble formulating a general response to these examples,
>because they all deal with what seems to me to be such a specialized
>case. Can you think of any other scenarios that might be more widely
>relevant?

>Thanks,
>Tobey W.

--

Perhaps what I'm trying to get at is how free will works between
interactions with various people on the general day-to-day basis. We all
have our own choices, but if they interfere with another's
choice/desire, it seems it can lead to the infringement of their free
will. The question is how are we to know if we are going against
another's free will if we don't know what their will is?

Hope that helps -
John

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tobey Wheelock

01-24-2006, 06:22 AM

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=MRp8OqWrs27DpLR43uuLrulgWTnnKhakEaU4bR _IDH4DxQA_5uwY6Fb48wDqsCTKqRd-IeHCfE1ztfxE), "John Seymour" <cococube11@c...> wrote:
>
> Perhaps what I'm trying to get at is how free will works between
> interactions with various people on the general day-to-day basis. We
> all have our own choices, but if they interfere with another's
> choice/desire, it seems it can lead to the infringement of their free
> will. The question is how are we to know if we are going against
> another's free will if we don't know what their will is?

John,

I found this quote, from session 18, that may be helpful:
Thus, what would be an improper distortion with one entity is
proper with another. We can suggest an attempt to become aware of
the other-self as self and thus do that action which is needed by
other-self, understanding from the other-self's intelligence and
awareness. In many cases this does not involve the breaking of
the distortion of free will into a distortion or fragmentation
called infringement. However, it is a delicate matter to be of
service, and compassion, sensitivity, and an ability to empathize
are helpful in avoiding the distortions of man-made intelligence
and awareness.

Actually, the whole quote is interesting, but a little long, so I'll
just point you to it rather than posting it.

Hope this helps. Basically, I would suggest that you consider changing
the question from "how can I avoid infringing on this person's free
will?" to "how can I best be of service to this person?"

L/L,
Tobey W.

Neil Haddon

01-24-2006, 07:47 AM

Tobey wrote:
"the archetype of the fool (or the Choice as Ra calls it), which is
portrayed as a blindfolded (or blind) man. See, for example,
http://www.sheek.com/studiesinra/images/Arcanum22.gif ."

Good point, Tobey.
I think this is behind the Jesus quote (if unadulterated) that unless you accept
as a little child - i.e. with simple faith, no adult logical agonising and
eventually disappearing where the imagination may take you.

The site you gave the link to seemed to indicate that Mr. Sheek was about to do
some very informative things about 'ancient' tarot - but the site has dried up.
Do you know what happened?

I thought this was going to be a good place to start to wrestle with Book Four
and Ra's instruction.

Love.
Neil

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

amilius2001

05-06-2006, 12:19 PM

Gang,
Within a Universe of the One Creator's Graciously Organized Design,
might the question of Free Will simply be: Will One appreciate the
Universe of One's own design? I find myself playing with the Law of
Grace as an expression of the Law of One. We are all One in Being by
Choice.
The Law of Grace is simple: All Choice generates Benefit for
Purposes of Appreciation. 'Gracious' is the demonstration of this
awareness. Honoring the Golden Rule guarantees gracious choices. I
observe that the Law of Grace is the theme of all histories and sacred
texts. Sacred Texts frequently recommend ungracious choices as a way
of awakening souls to the gracious nature of their being. In time,
progressive societies do set ungracious choices aside as disserving.
If One regards questions of STS/STO in terms of
gracious/ungracious, One will often make different choices than One
might when making 'good/bad' choices. Many are not clear that
'gracious/ungracious' choices are different than 'good/bad' choices.
Gracious/ungracious choices are determined from within. Good/bad
choices are frequently determined by external criteria. A useful
example of this might be that a 'good Christian' may differ from a
'gracious Christian'. A 'bad Muslim' may be a gracious muslim. A
'good Republican' is frequently an 'ungracious Republican.'
Gracious choices generate benevolence for sharing. Ungracious
choices generate instructive consequence that remind One that a more
gracious choice was missed in the taking. In this context, benvolence
and instructive consequence may both be appreciated as benefits of
Choice. There is no mystery in this yet few think in these terms.
Most have been taught to think in terms of 'Good' and 'Evil' as
opposites. They are not. The opposite of 'Evil' is 'Gracious'. In
fact, 'Evil' is an Ungracious assessment of Ungracious Choices. This
is the trick in the pairing: use of the word as judgment invites
consequence to the user. Understanding this, One might appreciate how
no consequence is unintended while events rise and pass for a purpose.
One lives in a world that supplies abundant evidence for this. The
Universe provides abundant opportunity to appreciate this.
I once asked in meditation, "In what context might the seemingly
mutually exclusive concepts 'Free Will' and 'Predestination' co-exist?
The answer that I got was simple and resonated as true:
"The One thing predestined by the Universe is Absolute Joy. One has
the Free Will to Avoid it."
One avoids Absolute Joy by entertaining Doubt with ungracious
choices. We live in a gracious Universe. It is not chaotic. Man is
a gracious creature until trained not to be. It functions this way
because We designed it this way when last we all were aware of Being
One and started playing the game of life. One can graciously
appreciate all of it, if One so chooses. Namaste.

infinitelybanta

05-06-2006, 01:48 PM

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=WUntPsAyLDzi-OCp6llMH363pvk6VY4Em5HW_6ABg2rgrCAwH25Q-64DctD1-m3Q-S81YbYDu3f4HjUs), "amilius2001" <angelfatigues@...> wrote:
>
> Gang,
> Within a Universe of the One Creator's Graciously Organized Design,
> might the question of Free Will simply be: Will One appreciate the
> Universe of One's own design? I find myself playing with the Law of
> Grace as an expression of the Law of One. We are all One in Being by
> Choice.
>

This is an wonderful post. It illustrated to me that, once again,
sometimes overthinking certain things can be problematic. Additionally,
the context in which certain topics are debated can often times lead to
making conclusions that are off the mark (or leading to an inability to
make any conclusions at all!) Even though I like to consider myself at
times "beyond" thinking in terms of "good/evil", certainly this
indoctrination will go deeper than one can ever imagine. Truly there is
a difference between KNOWING "the truth" and BEING "the truth" (I use
the phrase "the truth" completely subjectively here).

With GRACIOUS love,
Terry

bluephoenix010

05-06-2006, 05:14 PM

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com (/group/asc2k/post?postID=P5eMUEl7xvNWj95_cf0HbN8pOMeEVyAYIwfb6z wKLcrgdgRmFmdP7fLaiSPg8qCVpNobJ_LOY2oh4Rw), "amilius2001" <angelfatigues@...> wrote:

> "The One thing predestined by the Universe is Absolute Joy. One has
> the Free Will to Avoid it."

Wow, I'd like to use that as a signature.

And great post, I wholeheartedly agree. What it all adds up to is "Do
whatever the hell you want, because everything has a purpose."

amilius2001

05-07-2006, 01:24 AM

bluephoenix, you wrote:
> And great post, I wholeheartedly agree. What it all adds up to is "Do
> whatever the hell you want, because everything has a purpose."
>
One forgot to add up everything to arrive at your summation. One
overlooked or disregarded the prior part of the post. One is well
served with gracious choices. Making ungracious choices, One chooses
to avoid Absolute Joy. Many do. Ungracious choices generate
instructive consequences, reminding One that a more gracious choice
was missed in the taking. 'Whatever the hell one wants' may be the
experience One creates for One's self if One so chooses. One will
certainly find purpose in appreciating the instructive consequences of
One's ungracious choices. Care fully, choose graciously. Then One
might enjoy the heaven of One's own choosing. Namaste.

Erik

09-13-2006, 07:29 PM

Hello Group,

Free Will is the cornerstone of Creation and yet... its nothing in the MIND of
Infinity.
We all know that.

Our octave is about getting to know free-will and SEEK out destiny.

Erik.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Light Eye

09-15-2006, 11:34 AM

Dear Friends,

Lots of interesting links in this blog...

Re-member this...

When you think outside the box the box goes away... ;-)

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/09/free_will.html

Be Well, Be Love.

David

Free will

Here's an interesting essay by Chris Carter, covering the relationship between
mind and brain. Does the brain produce consciousness in approximately the same
way that the liver produces bile? Or does consciousness exist independent of the
brain, interacting with it or operating through it, much in the way that a TV
signal exists separately from the TV set that receives it?

Though the former view is certainly more fashionable today, it has not been
proved. Indeed, as Carter points out, neuroscience is no closer to solving the
"hard problem" of the mind-brain relationship today than it was a hundred years
ago. Perhaps this is because neuroscientists are looking at the question from
the materialist perspective, when they should be embracing a dualistic view.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]