A spiritual alert upon a logical proposition --- a discussion

[Xisto]

this is an alert, not a belief, and it is issued on a spiritual level based on a logical evaluation and comparison of a lot of (non-mainstream) material information about major world events that has been examined by me in the last ten years.

this goes out as an open hearted offer to raise a reasonable discussion about the very distinct possibility that even very good people such as our esteemed david wilcock might have been sucked into a very clever and well disguised form of manipulation, good enough as to have sent him into sending followers into the same trap he would have wholeheartedly fallen into.

this has been the moderator's answer to the latest comment (posted about the last post on david's blog and dealing with the chance of a different possibility in the ultimate turnout of the events he had presented): "[moderator: all statements of your beliefs. it's good that you're sorting this through... it is called "processing and integrating catalyst" in the law of one series.]"

so i guess it would be easy enough for me to say that all that has been said by anyone (including david), anywhere, anyhow is exactly the same! ;-)

so please let me reason this out with an exercise in logic, if you shall allow me to do so, "interfering" "my truth" with others' own ones(each one of us has one, different in essence, as communications theory precisely asserts): why should we, humans, place any trust on any other source of power than ourselves?

in that sense, why should we put any degree of trust in one sort of power which bears the exact same extraterrestrial nature (or, indifferently, one nature in its resemblance) as the one that once had been set to deceive us (as in the "fake alien invasion to be")?

and why should we place any trust on powers of that kind right now, when the cover of the fake alien invasion has long ago been blown on every internet forum (even popular ones such as facebook and you tube)?

why should we place any trust on such powers upon knowing that "they" (or the deception hidden behind "them") would only have changed its colors, going from "bad cop" to "good cop"?

why would we have to believe that t is anything more than an old battered con game, as it is?

because "the law of one" has told us so, perhaps.

so either way we went, we priorly would have had to believe in something external to ourselves, placing our trust in the alien, and then trusting even more in order to believe that such "aliens" are either such creatures, indeed, or, being extreaneous or not, that they would be only interested in our well being as a species (if for their own sake or not is indifferent to the point in case).

but then how could we ever come to do so (place trust and thus believe) once the allegedly well intentioned propositions offered by such forces (ra, in this case), in the long run, just happen go exactly alongside with the very same concept of "human unity" fostered by the globalist agenda?

and then how could we keep on trusting that vision once what is currently being proposed as a solution also goes in the very same "one world" direction?

how can we speak of "new (old) currencies" when there is so much misery on our planet, unattended by most of the political organizations, even if only their local administrative ones, from cities' to countries' government executives? (to name one of the many current critical disgraces, there are 5,7 million hiv infected persons in south africa alone.)

before i go, maybe for good, i would like to add a comment about this blog made by a newly acquired facebook friend with whom i had shared it: "yes, there will be an era of peace, but not before the "man of sin" be revealed. this stuff seems designed precisely to bring about the "false peace" by promoting false hope, which is meant to get people to let down their guard and believe in yet another fairy tale, so that when the true one comes along, it will be a case of the "the shepherd boy and the wolf", but in reverse."

he had never made any contact with dc and only had his logic to make up for his reasoning, which i deem as a straight on possibility, the same one i have thus decided to offer for you consideration.

peace and love to all, always.

[MarkM]

i do see where you’re coming from with this, and do see these points as being representative of valid concerns held by many who have witnessed the struggle of the centuries between men and women of good will and those who hold the reins of power for their own sake.

you ask - are we being duped once again? false hope?

are we being led to put our faith in extraneous, exterior saviour/posers, masquerading as rescuers – those who would save us from ourselves? is such a thing even possible, and is this what david wilcock is trying to tell us? hmm.

speaking of the spiritual viewed through the lens of the rational, logical mind... is it really possible that there are power centers existing outside of us, existing independently of us; owning the power to quell our spirit regardless of our level of responsibility for our destiny? is it possible that there is a fundamental disconnect between our increasing awakening to loving integration, and continuation at full speed of outer powers?

what of the concept which suggests that ‘apparent’ outer influence over us exists merely as a reciprocal function of our own hitherto failure to take responsibility for ourselves and all life on this planet and beyond? is david not suggesting above all that the apparent schism between us and the negs is strictly a necessary function of the degree to which we live out of concordance with universal law – universal law which recognizes all facets of creation as being consonant with ourselves – no less deserving of our personal ministrations than ourselves?

mario, could it be that our own lapses in this regard – our historic willingness to wage war amongst ourselves in a relativistic and divisive mindframe – disconnected from universal love and compassion which sees no differences amongst us - have necessarily resulted in the current predicament? would it not follow that one may consider that the current situation is a perfectly justifiable and perfect manifestation of... ourselves?

if this is so, i ask you all, what do we do to begin a reversal of this predicament into a situation in which we come together as one harmonically chorded world, featuring predominantly peace and goodwill towards men, sans the seeming outer influence of deception and control? what do you suggest as a practical and comprehensive course of action?

also... if there exists on this planet a significant number of people who have attained the ability to let all conditions pass through them as naught – those who have discovered how to let all pass which is not in attunement with universal law – those who have come together in communion and unconditional love, forming a widespread network of peaceful intention, no longer taking the bait of conflict and resistance to the melting influence of total acceptance and gratitude for all the afore-mentioned conditions, might this community by perfect universal reciprocal necessity have outlasted the need for the further experience of the jackboot?

so, who experiences what? according to ideas contained within the law of one series, one’s outer experiencing mirrors the inner landscape. notwithstanding the loo series, this seems to make sense. one may imagine that for some who still play chess with the reciprocals, further experiencing of conflict in the historical sense is inevitable and perfectly just, and is only designed to foment, through very personal catalyst, the eventual arrival at unconditional love; whereby every condition is equally able to be passed through one’s self without resistance, and all is seen as self.

i would imagine that as folks begin to attain this purely heart centered activation, beyond the interminable relativistic churnings of the intellectual tool, the whole universe (and her heart-resonant denizens) naturally becomes a free flowing conduit of personal aid... simply because one has aligned with the flow of the loving universe. in all of this, again... that which manifests outwardly is a function of the inner landscape, and the variety of manifested conditions varies only as to our inner. in a nutshell, there is no outer influence other than that which is a function of the primary reality of our personal condition. aid is ever-present, even if it seems malevolent... it’s merely us showing ourselves to ourselves, for purposes of love-catalyst. nothing else exists in all the universe. mark

[MarkM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcreqipi6sg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkqslh-lltq&nr=1

[Easeintothefuture]

i don’t know if this fits here because i am not sure i am completely up to speed with the issues this thread raises… still…

i was once walking with a friend somewhere near where i live and i chanced to see the slogan that heads this post – not the bracketed addition - in a window and it struck me as profound – not only it its political sense but in its deeper subjective one as indicating a state of spiritual peace completely at rest and at home with itself - devoid of all inner conflict - because it recognizes no enemies, only pleasant and unpleasant circumstances

we’re all familiar with the maxim what you resist persists in the sense that the more you press against a lower energy the more you empower it. i also remember reading in a book about out of the body experience by a wonderful teacher of the same – no longer with us – who described in one of his early experiences when he first got out of the body how he found himself in a gloomy realm with these dark entities that were impeding him – and he really wanted to go on and out to further adventures/explorations – so he immediately engaged them trying to fight them off but he found the more he did so the more he became locked in their realm – for some time. finally he surrendered and relaxed/accepted and eventually found he could float away. transcendence!

with this in mind then, if i were to analogize an ideal position from my perspective – it would be in an accepting awareness that most definitely embraces the dark monsters that breed fear and inhabit the bottom of the ocean, it would also be there with the millions of ordinary fish both predator and prey that live in the middle depths, it would also be found amid the play and chatter of the funloving dolphins living on permanent holiday near the sparkling clear surface and beyond that it would expand out to the serene blue sky extending in different shades of peace forever… that is ideally speaking, of course.

[Xisto]

mark, to be very as concise and specific as possible in answer to the question you posed at the beginning of your (beautifully written) answer to my post, let me please point you to two sources.

the first is a film by chris white called "david icke debunked", on which he shows historical developments of connections between entities from higher density and people of this world. it is fairly interesting and quite ellucidating in terms of a number of "spiritual entrapments", which at one point (near the ending) even include david (who, btw, the author sees as an honest believer). i guess that anyone who's either interested or engaged in spiritual development could profit a lot from what is addressed on the documentary. (it is available on you tube and quickly found under its title.)

the second is way trickier, we could say, as it is presented by its exposer under a claim that it does represent the content of an interview with a person nicknamed "hidden hand", who would be no less than a very high-ranked illuminati who had come clean and "delivered the goods", so to speak, revealing a whole lot of "information" about subjects ranging from their ultimate purpose --- a world living under one and the very same directive, guided by love ---- all the way to revealing "lucifer" as its highest leader. once you find yourself through all the contents, the similarity between proposed guidelines and a lot of what is spread by the so called "new age movement" is out of the ordinary. (the last time i heard of this text, it was harbored on a site called eek "above top secret". look for "hidden hand".)

it is quite striking that such similarities do not at all exclude some coincidences with teachings from ra.

then, at this point, we come to find identity, or the one single common denominator, between the employed means of communication utilized by the elements who would have given those (so called, for the sake of doubt) spiritual messages, as well as their dimensional status, and those means of ra, who would have given the law of one, and his dimensional status: they were all supposedly given to us, in writing, as transcriptions from chanelled messages given by "creatures of higher densities" unto human beings.

and that is precisely the point at which trust comes into the picture, a trust that is commonly known to be further transformed into faith of a kind not at all unlike the ones taken into heart by believers of any of the many existing religions.

at the same time, or sometime later, we might come to realize the existence of what relies at the core of the questions i used to propose this discussion, whose fulcrum is basically this: in order to experience full-fledged love, do we, humans, at any point, have to rely on any source of belief other than the recognition elements of goodness we can already find within ourselves in our own feelings for one another and the world that surrounds us?

and then do we also have to trust that any of those upper sources (or all of them, for that matter) are worthy of our trust simply because they would have supposedly told us about something that ultimately does already rely within ourselves, even if only in potential?

and even more: could those forces be out to deceive us, by putting us under control, guiding the ideals for our actions as if, once again, we were at all uncapable of attaining love for ourselves?

just consider the loving qualities of human beings untainted by so called civilized culture, such as some amazon natives or even small children. can one not just feel the love that exudes from them, in their pure innocence?

so you see that there is room for discussion and there is room for precaution even while not avoiding love.

it is not a question of being on guard, only a question of recognizing that if pure love does exist, then there is also evil, and it will certainly sought out to control humans even if under the cloak of love, even if for the single fact of proposing, as discreetly as it can be, the dimmest kind of differentiation between any man and the next one, as it happens in the ranks of any kind of group you can come to think about.

i do understand that not caring about different elements can help us a lot as we steer towards love, but then i put all elements together in one same category: extraneous from our human experience, not at all meant to be perceived by us, as they are actually not perceived, you see, unless if "given to us by x or y messenger".

they are not us.

[Jeia Ra Manuk]

been here long enough, might as well share my personal opinion on the subject at hand:

david wilcock...

ah, where to start and how to end?

from the initial impression i realized that the man has strong personal beliefs and opinions but the again, who doesn't in this business? but behind those blue eyes and that silk white skin is a creature that will dominate and thrive on even when all of us give up! he is determined; determined to be heard by those that are willing to listen! he is not better than us and is not worse than us. just like any man he gets up from bed every morning and goes back to that bed every evening. he sleeps with his eyes closed.

i've stated this to many others before and will state again, i do not hold the belief that spirituality can be sold or made into a business and this is probably the only grounds upon which i would argue with david. and then there is obviously a sub-category to the above. due to the development of this business he is moving out of the position of a spiritual teacher/guru and into a position of a busy man with a tight schedule who only has the time to greet his fans and followers at the conferences an will not and cannot participate actively in the online community.

for someone like me, who has spend a great deal with the masters of eastern philosophies, a spiritual teacher or a guru has only one job and that is to be with the people and of the people. the person receives benefits; be it food, shelter, cloth, etc., not because he sells a product or a service and earns thus but on the contrary he is acknowledged by his people as the soul that deserves these gifts from the community on a daily bases.

i sure do hope in the collapse of the present economy and the raise of an equal distribution economy.

when we are all equals and have the same income, then we will see who the new and real leaders of the world are!
and i sure as hell hope that david will be one of them. and thus i state here and now that i have full trust in this person. this individual is above the average intelligence and has a unique and complex personality. he is not at all what meets the eye! only a few know him for who he really is. just like us he has his demons and angels; likes and dislikes; wants and needs and so on! and because he is truly one of us i know that he will make a great leader and that he is not being manipulated. although his want to believe sometimes clouds his judgment, he's been in this for far too long and would've suspected something by now, if he was being lead around a mouse trap!

the falsehood of your implying is the position from which you view this particular individual. he is not different and not special; he admits this himself and implies on equality. like i always say: characteristics we subscribe to certain information heavily relies on the presenter.

when you can understand that this is just another man with his opinion, you'll see that there is nothing sinister there; no secrets, except for personal ones, and surely no double-face/double agent or different agenda hidden behind the one that is presented in the open. sure, maybe a couple of his sources tell him lies or misleading information now and then; but at least he is able to turn all the incoming information into positive and radiant. he's not creating mass hysteria with doom and gloom scenarios. you throw a nuke at him and it will come out as a beautiful flower of love.

can't you see this? don't buy into the fear porn, as ra ta always says!
sure, he's not perfect and hurt a couple of souls along the line. left some of us in the dark, scared and lost... but he is one of a few that understands the special gift that this life time is! it is the time to correct and undo all mistakes. a time to fix karma through love and devotion! there is no point in arguing anymore; no point in picking sides! those that want to be our leaders will fight for what we want. but for us, it is time to forgive and be forgiven! to be there for our families and our loved ones; to make sure they have a safe and happy transition into the new world.

love and light,
ra ma

[billybobbutterball]

dear xisto

i was somewhat surprised that your post was allowed by mark ( he also serves as a senior moderator) the reason for my reaction was that your post is at the very best in a rather grey area borderline to one of the rules that you signed off on, namely #2

2. your presence in this group comprises a tacit acceptance of our core values and beliefs as set forth in mr. wilcock’s work and the law of one series from l/l research company. while skepticism and critical thinking are always useful in the pursuit of knowledge, we cannot have meaningful discussions if we must constantly defend our fundamentals against those who choose to disagree. if an individual cannot approach the material with an open mind and respectful demeanor, they will make others uncomfortable, and in turn may receive uncomfortable responses. such skeptics will be unsubscribed from the group if their criticism hurts the community spirit of the group.

your presentation is intelligent, well-crafted -- and virtually unanswerable, but on the other hand virtually unprovable; its simply the quasi-philosophical nature of addressing the subject. its like the problem with descarte's classical statement: "i think therefore i am" -- which can be turned around to the ontological variation. "i am therefore i think." so? which has the highest truth value?

if your concern is to alert peeps about the possibility of deception by wolves in sheep's clothing i think you over did it. and when you call on people to trust their own sense of what is right and wrong i think you drove right off the cliff! living this life experience as a "free will," blindfolded entity is like trying to stay on a narrow path winding its way between two mountains of error on either side. blindfolded? we can't do it!...but then we are not expected to either...after all the great cosmic plan is that wisdom and understanding is the product of diversity within unity. as for your reference as to the self-reliant, noble savage escaping error, i don't think so! ...that is a legend created by romantic literature!

the point i would like to make is that your comments will be a dis-service and detract from those coming to divine cosmos in search of answers to their nagging sense of spiritual seeking. however, on the positive side it might also serve as a vaccination shot for later on when encountering gloomy nay-sayers who attempt to smother their budding spiritual enthusiasm with wet blankets of negativity.

how do we determine who/what is negative and which positive? the basic dividing line is that the negative will instruct you (micro-manage) on what to do....the positive, will not interfere with your free will (whatever free will is ...a more accurate term would be that of self-determination)

so..despite the limitations of my message i would hope that it will still have enough 'oomph' to encourage readers (in particular those bouncing around various site -- always seeking "truth" but never finding it) to stick around and avail themselves of the incredible wealth that is available through avenues to be found here.... proof? before the fact? no. that will be for your heart to discover in due course.

where is a "smiley" now that i need it....(:>)) ..hmmm,,,pathetic..but will have to do...

love, kindness gratitude!...the highest and best good for all concerned!!!!

bill g aka billybobbutterball esq.

[loveis8hertz]

how do we determine who/what is negative and which positive? the basic dividing line is that the negative will instruct you (micro-manage) on what to do....the positive, will not interfere with your free will (whatever free will is ...a more accurate term would be that of self-determination)



billybobbutterball, i agree on this line of examination.

i would also like to suggest that all belief systems should be carefully examined by each person and queried before you accept it as your truth:
are these beliefs self-limiting, or self-empowering?
do they serve humanity (as one people)?
is the individual free-will and freedoms/rights respected?
is free thinking and exploration of both science and spiritual (complementary) understandings encouraged?
is it free from organised especially political control structures?
does it promote fear-base thinking, or heart-centered thinking?
does this currently resonate with me?

why current because when new insights and experiences are gained, you may wish to change your bellief systems to better reflect your truth.

--

:) it is encouraging to see more posts where people are demonstrating discernment of belief systems, questioning the ideologies presented and avoiding the usual immediate 'group think' reaction and compliance.

from latinised greek:
gubernatio means "management, government"
mente means "mind"
government = mind control
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/talk:government


are you consciously a making choice[/b] between allowing for [b]external government of self vs self-government

[Jeia Ra Manuk]

wow love,
your words are always so powerful i am usually unable to respond; but what you have provided at the bottom in just beyond anything i ever heard! thanks for the translation! :d i will use it around the block! and to think, like always, hidden right before our eyes!

love and light,
liz

[Dtris]

it is my opinion that the more you become attuned to the spiritual energies of our world the easier it will be to detect falsehoods and negative entities. of course we should be skeptical and critical of all teachings, and i mean skeptical in its original usage and not its modern usage. as my martial arts teacher says, "don't just believe that what i say is right, but try it and find out for yourself." any teacher can only show us what they believe is correct (if they are not trying to deceive us). it is our job to seek out the experiences that will show it to be true or false, or usually somewhere in between. even newton's laws of gravitation were not 100% correct but they allowed us to build up even more knowledge than we could have without them. so ultimately it is in us to find the truth and we are the only ones who can do the work for ourselves. no teacher can do it for you.

additionally you present a false choice. that of either believing that dw and others are correct, or that they are being deceived by negative forces. there is a third choice, that of not worrying about it and just waiting and seeing. if aliens are going to land in 2012 then there is nothing we can do to stop them, so why not just keep living your life and see what happens. the world does seem to be moving towards a one world government as well. the only question is are those in power going to have the best interests of the people in mind or are they going to be there for their own greedy reasons? only time will tell. the proof will be in the pudding as they say.

[loveis8hertz]

wow love,
your words are always so powerful i am usually unable to respond; but what you have provided at the bottom in just beyond anything i ever heard! thanks for the translation! :d i will use it around the block! and to think, like always, hidden right before our eyes!

love and light,
liz


billybobbutterball, i agree on this line of examination.

from latinised greek:
gubernatio means "management, government"
mente means "mind"
government = mind control
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/talk:government



are you consciously making your own decision between the choice of allowing for external government of self vs self-government

are you consciously making your own decision between the choice of allowing for external mind control vs self mind-control

are you consciously making your own decision between the choice of allowing for external programmed beliefs vs self-realised beliefs


you and everyone here are free to use any information in my posts to raise awareness, and help people realise they have more choices!

[East Sun]

because of the advanced complicated methods that can be used today to condition/brainwash humans and because of the realization that i and others have duped into believing things that turned out to be false i've come to a conclusion.

a few times this summer it just came to my head that anyone could be under the control of the hidden agenda people control the happenings in our world.
for that reason i now look at every possible angle that i can come up with when hearing new info. when i look at the possibility that someone may have their own agenda or unconsciously be controlled by others i don't accuse that person in my mind, but just imagine what it would mean if it were true.

i stopped coming to this forum quite a while ago because when i asked a few questions i was discouraged from even questioning anything being presented.
any question will get someone thinking and that is a good thing even if there are doubts for a while.

in other words all possibilities need to be considered.

[MarkM]

personally, my opinion on all this... i feel thankful for the entire tapestry of human intrigue, endeavor and apparent fickle folly, and feel strongly that with every situation we apprehend comes only one clear choice - to find the ever-present potential for love in the situation, or to find otherwise. either choice is okay, and equally builds towards our self-realization.

every condition, belief system, loving relationship, control mechanism, deception, beautiful poem or earthworm is just right for someone's continuing development on the road to love, and for that i send my heartfelt, undistinguishing gratitude into the universe!

there may be love behind everything.

with every single thing manifest there exists direct love-bound catalyst somewhere, somehow, for direct, divine personal aid. if it weren't so, it wouldn't have manifested. i feel that for any individual, that which manifests as being uncomfortable in any way is a direct inverse measure of mis-alignment with the flow of infinite love which governs the cosmos. that manifestation is designed in a divine manner to prompt and catalyse spiritual growth.

again, my opinion only, offered not as an admonition, but a passive suggestion which may or may not be useful to you (either way is fine!) ... when pondering the relative validity or usefulness of something to you personally, try taking it into your heart and seeing how its resonation pattern jives with your own. does it make beautiful music which warms your tummy, or does it clang and leave a garish, tinny taste in your mouth? does it feel like somewhere you want to go into, or do you feel instinctively that you'd rather do without?

regardless of how it meshes with your own unique signature vibratory mandala, perhaps bless it without equivocation; as it will do just fine for the next dude or dudess! :) what is disinfo for you may be literally heaven-sent for someone else.

again, my opinion only, and i would never want to push it on anyone else, or say that this or that is something you 'must' check out... unless i'm talking about my mum's cherry cheesecake... ;)

could i be right in feeling that this lighthearted and whimsical approach to unconditional love, acceptance and gratitude makes for my optimum capacity to ascend above negative influence in my life, and might my own unique universe as a result see me flung into a condition of progressive freedom from deceptive influences? might i be seeing the collapse of the neg apparatus in my life, as does dw, simply because i bless it and love it to death? cha??? mark, a bona-fide asshole hippy from outer space

[Apophis]

mark you are way coooo. i've really loved every post i've read of yours! thank you!!


(moderator note: actually this message of professed adoration should have been sent as a private message; however, since it is addressed to his posting skills rather than his current physical embodiment, his fellow moderator feels that it should be allowed --seeing that mark's psyche can certainly use a bit of publicized, ego-building fan-mail approval type love... authorized by mr. bbb)

(extra to apophis: you would also love the one's you haven't read yet..factoid: mark m tends to grow on one)

[Xisto]

all answers are great, but unfortunately i'm currently deprived of a good internet apparatus.

two things, though: the way i see things,i do live my life much like the tarot's fool, and those ways are very similar to the proposition of "let's wait and see" (and if we were to face facts, full frontal, perhaps we could learn that whole reality drives itself just like that, ignorant of our individual existences except on what concerns us directly).

sorry, gotta go now, but i truly loved all answers.

peace and love.

[Asa]

i'd like to post a reply to the original posting and hope that you will stick with me for the entire posting. but let me reintroduce myself before i begin. i have been around divine cosmos and dw since early 2006; that was before it was moved to this platform. like xisto my emergence has been evolving for over a decade so i've been "around the block" a few times. with that said let us get to the subject at hand.

i cannot respond to his entire message in due to the 5000 characters limitation. if there is interest in addressing other issues i will post more later.

let me start off by making a clear statement for everyone. whenever i read or hear any variation of "my truth" it makes my skin crawl. the definition of truth as given by miriam webster is; (1) state of being the case; (2) the body of real things, events, and facts; and (3) a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality. if anything is a truth it will have to be the same for me as it is for anyone else. if that which we come to know is different for you than it is for me it is not a truth but merely a perception.

truths are the real things, events, and facts as they are found to be and hold the same meaning for each of us. example; on this planet gravity is truth; if i drop a rock it falls to the ground, if anyone else drops a rock it falls to the ground. from that real event we can say that the force that makes the rock fall to the ground is a truth.

has any of us who receive information from "outside" sources "been sucked into a very clever and well disguised form of manipulation"? maybe, maybe not. while receiving this information two paramount rules cannot be broken. one is that the gift of free will cannot be violated and the second is nothing that is done or said as an "outside" influence can do anything to disturb in any way a lesson or event that we have contracted to experience. that leaves much room for receiving input whereby we must use our own faculties for preceiving the meaning not too mention that distortion can be created by our own internal preferences and biases.

xisto asks why should we, humans, place any trust on any other source of power than ourselves. the answer is quite clearly that you shouldn't. xisto has been in the emergence of their awakening for ten years. in that time there should have been much learned about who and what they truly are. in that learning they should have come to the knowing that they are spiritual beings having a physical experience and in that knowing there should have come a realization that they have an existence as a "higher self". it is that "higher self" that they should be listening to. that is done by allowing your "higher self" in the form of your "intuition" to apply discernment and discretion to all that you encounter as material to be processed as knowledge.

xisto also brings up the issue of "fake alien invasions". believe me we are not nearly ready for contact from anyone who is of a higher nature and may not ever be ready as a totality. observe what we as a species in physicality have exhibited; we have proven intolerant of difference to the point of using violence against anyone or anything that is different, we have proven incapable of handling the simplest of issues such as population control to the point we have allowed the planetary population to reach a point that we cannot sustain our level population without creating much pain and suffering, we have failed to even comprehend the importance of utilizing the planetary resources with the slightest regard to the impact of resource depletion will have on the continued existence of the species, and these are just three examples the full list runs pages and pages long. what we have exhibited is such a lack of ability to learn, know and exercise wisdom that if i was part of any "alien" fleet standing by to assist us i would do everything possible to insure that none of us got the opportunity to spread this "infection" to anywhere else in this universe.

xisto questions why the law of one [ra is, as they repeated over and over, simply a messenger] is a message of universal unity which is simply an extrapolation of "global unity" to a much higher level. the "global unity" context is not the problem, the problem lies in the intent behind why "the powers to be" wish to implement a forced "global unity". global unity that grows out of wisdom born of universal knowledge would not be harmful but instead would be the blessing that many, many physical beings on this planet wish for as it would bring forth the "utopian" society or "paradise on earth".

these are not opinions, they are not perceptions, they are truths; waiting for you to come to know them through your own discernment, discretion and experiences. there is much more that can be said about xisto's posting but i have to terminate at this point for now.

blessings and love to all.

asa
aka "brother asa"

[MarkM]

aha, brother asa, nice to see another post from you!

i would certainly enjoy seeing further posts from you on these issues.

my thoughts so far... may a universal truth remain a truth even if it it is as yet unpercieved by humanity? if a truth really has an objective existance beyond subjective observation, this would seem to me to suggest an a priory existance of the outer universe independant of consciousness. as the ra say, a mountain may be moved by the mind power of a sufficient number of those coordinating their efforts, even if they are not entirely free of distortion. might not any physical axiomatic law be transcended by as yet unknown deeper layers of intelligent manipulation of natural laws as we percieve them, and who can define the limit on this? in this light i wonder if the 'distortion' of the one infinite intelligence in which we find infinite variability really owns intrinsic truth - beyond the infinite unmoving potential of the creator - as being distinct from perception/creation of variety.


ra: i am ra. consider, if you will, that the universe is infinite. this has yet to be proven or disproven, but we can assure you that there is no end to your selves, your understanding, what you would call your journey of seeking, or your perceptions of the creation.

that which is infinite cannot be many, for many-ness is a finite concept. to have infinity you must identify or define that infinity as unity; otherwise, the term does not have any referent or meaning. in an infinite creator there is only unity. you have seen simple examples of unity. you have seen the prism which shows all colors stemming from the sunlight. this is a simplistic example of unity.

in truth there is no right or wrong. there is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. this distortion is not in any case necessary. it is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. you are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. you are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. you are unity. you are infinity. you are love/light, light/love. you are. this is the law of one.

while we hear of the loo-sourced primary distortions of free will and love, even these are held by the ra to be distortions nevertheless. distortions are defined as being intrinsically infinitely diversified by nature, such as an undefinable level of distortion of a reflection cast by a warping mirror... webster's definition seems to be related to that to which we all agree on in order to experience in common, but do these seeming universal truths exist beyond our commonly agreed on bounds of perception?

for the purposes of our convo, along the lines of our sphere of agreed on distortion of shared truth... i agree that we seem to be as a whole quarantined on this planet, and agree that we in our present state as a civilization may be rightfully prevented from wantonly conquering and pillaging the spheres of other worlds!

yet perhaps by ones and twos, some of us become eligible to transcend these limitations, as we individually reach a state of personal loving responsibility to be allowed to leave this boot camp of largely newish human souls. this could be the parting of the ways of which the ra speak, and in this sense some may find themselves welcomed into the larger fraternity of more evolved and peaceful modes of existance, even while gazing back at the third density maelstrom, finally appreciating all of its distortions as being only the learning cauldron of those who are in need of that third level of catalyst.

might it be that third density may always be third density, forever, in the sense that third density will never want for newer evolving second density entities coming up the pike? boot camp - maybe there's always a new bunch of greenies waiting to be taken in, even while some will be graduating out of the other end...

perhaps many of us here are already laying the foundations of a loving new world, more closely vectored towards the universal flow, yet still infinitely distorted; even as others are still well ensconced into the need to further experience a turbulent third density. maybe not all of us are inherently ready to experience the extrapolation of unity into this new world as yet, but i believe that all will, eventually. all may be perfect, in its becoming, and apparent process. i personally feel there's no major rush for me to return to source - i'm enjoying my discovery/mystery! my perception of truth is subject to change at the drop of a hat, if something or someone comes along to inspire new resonating truths. mark

[Apophis]

aha, brother asa, nice to see another post from you!

i would certainly enjoy seeing further posts from you on these issues.

agreed!! you have a depth to your expression that is not usually seen around here. thank you.


as to the thread topic:
i see a concern here. the ego part of you is extremely weary of being "duped" as can be a common thing on this planet. we are continuously confronted with "the sales pitch" especially on television! and your heart is finally saying, enough!!! where does the thrust for control end!!! this is a good sign. your heart is gaining ground in your awareness. and your ego is fighting harder and harder to protect it. as my ego has concluded, there is nothing greater in this world than love. and when you follow the guidance of your own heart it will fully lead you into the love shared by the universe. this transition is not guided by "others" it is guided by you! some things that "others say" will ring true in your own awareness. it is this that will guide you, again coming from your own heart!

as a practice you may try, not listening to anyone!
but in taking up this practice, you are listening to someone...
paradox
the ego cannot comprehend...
love is the answer.

i do not "know" if i am on the right path, but i feel that i am expressing love. and that is the path i follow.

apophis

[Asa]

mark,

my apologies, the mundane got in the way of my desire to reply in a conscious manner.


my thoughts so far... may a universal truth remain a truth even if it it is as yet unpercieved by humanity?

oh yes, take for instance gravity! gravity is a universal truth in a sense and a good metaphor for the underlying primal universal truth. gravity existed before newton “discovered” it, did it not? gravity exists even where we have not perceived, does it not? if there is a black hole there will be gravity, no question. we don't have to perceive the black hole for gravity to exist.


if a truth really has an objective existance beyond subjective observation, this would seem to me to suggest an a priory existance of the outer universe independant of consciousness.

how so? what if the objective existence is due to consciousness? i believe ra indicated that what existed first was energy and that energy then became intelligent. intelligence implies to me consciousness. so if before the big bang what existed was energy and that energy became conscious/intelligent then after the big bang what ensued would have been that consciousness/intelligence broken into immeasurable consummate pieces and from those pieces our "universe" and all the other universes would have formed.


might not any physical axiomatic law be transcended by as yet unknown deeper layers of intelligent manipulation of natural laws as we percieve them, and who can define the limit on this?

the possibility of manipulation through intelligence would assuredly have to be based upon certain principles or truths. surely, as you pointed out, the ability of sufficient mind power, whether individual or as a group, to move a mountain is based upon a universal principle, law or truth [all simply another way of expressing the same thing].

an aspect of this principle is, as ra explained, the gaining of the ability to connect directly to the consciousness/intelligence of the other. in the case of your example, other would be that which makes up the mountain. this ability at its most fundamental level operates from the aspect of the law of one. from there other aspects or "distortions" of the law of one allows the ability to do as ra pointed out--move mountains.

the primary universal truth is referred to as the law of one. simply stated that is--we are all connected. stating it simply leaves much omitted. going back to the beginning, previously referenced, if what existed in the beginning was energy and that energy then became intelligent/conscious the ensuing “big bang” caused pieces of that intelligence/consciousness to be hurled out. those pieces of consciousness/intelligence became the fundamental building blocks of the entire infinite universes.

everything in the universes shares the same primal consciousness/intelligence—hence we are all part of the one. if we are all part of the one we are all connected. that consciousness/intelligence is found at every level regardless of how small or where it ranks on the scale of “intelligent capability” or “density” or “dimensional existence”. there is intelligence in every atom. that is why you have a nucleus of a proton and a neutron with electrons spinning around it. that intelligence is also the same intelligence that makes up our higher selves. therefore we are our creators [our father] and the creator [our father] is us. simple, yes?

expanded--what we see in nature is just a reflection of the basic universal laws or truths. for instance the universal law of attraction—like attracts like. we see that in the attraction of animals of the same species to each other—simply a reflection of the law of attraction.

in the next post i will address the next issue you broached.

brother asa

[Asa]

in this light i wonder if the 'distortion' of the one infinite intelligence in which we find infinite variability really owns intrinsic truth - beyond the infinite unmoving potential of the creator - as being distinct from perception/creation of variety.

perhaps the statement should be catapulted head over heels – we find in intrinsic truth infinite variability – intrinsic truth contains the unmoving potential of the creator – the creator is indistinct from perception of variety since variety is composed of creator.


ra: i am ra. consider, if you will, that the universe is infinite. this has yet to be proven or disproven, but we can assure you that there is no end to your selves, your understanding, what you would call your journey of seeking, or your perceptions of the creation.

that which is infinite cannot be many, for many-ness is a finite concept. to have infinity you must identify or define that infinity as unity; otherwise, the term does not have any referent or meaning. in an infinite creator there is only unity. you have seen simple examples of unity. you have seen the prism which shows all colors stemming from the sunlight. this is a simplistic example of unity.

in truth there is no right or wrong. there is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. this distortion is not in any case necessary. it is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. you are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. you are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. you are unity. you are infinity. you are love/light, light/love. you are. this is the law of one.

let me address some of the things ra points out in this message from my perspective. infinity has to be unity from several perspectives not the least of which is as ra points out if it was not unity then it would be infinite as there would have to be at some a finite number of parts. only in one do you find unity.

if what we are part of is infinite then the creator, or that from which came what we are part, must be infinite. if infinity is unity then creator has to be unity. if i am composed of pieces of creator then i am infinite, i am everything, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. i am unity. i am infinity.

if everything we can experience came from creator, then everything is simply a distortion or a product of creator. [i have often wondered why don never asked for ra to more fully explain how he was using the term “distortion”.] the best definition i can come up with is “a product or derivative of”. if i start with a basic thought and then build upon that thought i create distortions of that thought or basically products of the original thought. using that definition then free will, love, and anything else for that matter is a distortion or product of the original conscious/intelligent energy.

therefore we distort or produce a derivative of the true reality for which we exist. we observe the events of today and produce all kinds of distortions or derivative meanings for what is occurring. the truth is that all events are occurring as a necessity for the unfoldment of where this phase of planetary existence needs to go. the occupy movement, the war in libya, the whole middle east situation, the events occurring with the dark side and those opposing it, everything is simply a synchronized dance for us to arrive at the portal to move through the transition into the next phase of this planet. nothing more, we on the other hand instead of accepting that we are part of the whole of the universe and seek harmony with it spend our time in a make believe existence.

“distortions are defined as being intrinsically infinitely diversified by nature, such as an undefinable level of distortion of a reflection cast by a warping mirror…webster’s definition seems to be related to that to which we all agree on in order to experience in common, but do these seeming universal truths exist beyond our commonly agreed on bounds of perception?”

who said that ra’s use of the word “distortion” conformed to our concept of the meaning of that word? as i pointed out, their use of the word distortion is the same distortion you reference as demonstrated by a comparison to the reflection cast by a warping mirror. the distortion ra refers is something entirely different. it is, i believe, more on the order of a product or derivative of, as i said. when you go and review ra’s use of distortion looking at it more from a point of view as being something that is made from or comes out of something else then it appears to me to be a lot clearer.

next posting - some interesting aspects.

brother asa

[Asa]

while we hear of the loo-sourced primary distortions of free will and love, even these are held by the ra to be distortions nevertheless. distortions are defined as being intrinsically infinitely diversified by nature, such as an undefinable level of distortion of a reflection cast by a warping mirror... webster's definition seems to be related to that to which we all agree on in order to experience in common, but do these seeming universal truths exist beyond our commonly agreed on bounds of perception?

to complete my comment on the above quote: yes, as i previously pointed out these truths do exist beyond our common agreed on bounds of perception. these truths govern out the entire universe operates so they have to exist beyond our feeble attempts at perception. they govern the creation of what we call stars, planets, that which we refer to as life forms so the bounds of our perception has no effect whatsoever.


yet perhaps by ones and twos, some of us become eligible to transcend these limitations, as we individually reach a state of personal loving responsibility to be allowed to leave this boot camp of largely newish human souls. this could be the parting of the ways of which the ra speak, and in this sense some may find themselves welcomed into the larger fraternity of more evolved and peaceful modes of existance, even while gazing back at the third density maelstrom, finally appreciating all of its distortions as being only the learning cauldron of those who are in need of that third level of catalyst.

i agree with your sentiments. couple of salient points - first the concept that this is a "boot camp of largely newish human souls". for what i have come to know - everyone here at this time is here because they "fought" to get here at this time and that for at least a century if not longer all "souls" that were allowed to incarnate here came only from the "old" soul group. according to what i have come upon there are no "youngish or newish souls" here at this time. there are no souls here who if they awoke to the truth and reality of this "training ground" could not achieve the ability to have learned all the lessons required to never again "have to" return to 3d. that said, it should be apparent that as ra pointed out that when "harvest" time comes for each of us we will have had the opportunity and the resources to gained the learning to walk the "light" to a high enough level to fully appreciate what it meant to graduate 3d.


might it be that third density may always be third density, forever, in the sense that third density will never want for newer evolving second density entities coming up the pike? boot camp - maybe there's always a new bunch of greenies waiting to be taken in, even while some will be graduating out of the other end...

third density will always be third density in a sense, but it may never again be as it was on this planet. the difficulty of breaching the veil to discover the truth behind what incarnating on this planet was about may never again be used in the entirety of all universes. you see this was a unique experiment in the way of teaching these lessons. third density lessons will always be third density learning but the length of time it takes to get from kindergarten to graduating as a phd can take a lot longer in other 3d modalities than what one could do in this accelerated fast track system.


brother asa

[Asa]

perhaps many of us here are already laying the foundations of a loving new world, more closely vectored towards the universal flow, yet still infinitely distorted; even as others are still well ensconced into the need to further experience a turbulent third density.

that is what all the talk about raising consciousness and light levels, increasing vibration, and crystallizing one's energy is all about. it is to try to get more people who are "laying the foundation" for this new way of existing. it is becoming in harmony with the universal flow that occurs when you finally grasp what all those phrases mean and what you need to do to accomplish those tasks. yes, we are all still distorted - a product or derivative of the original creator but if we weren't distorted then we would have completed 8d and would be in the process of remerging with creator. there will be many that will have made the choice to repeat third density either with lower conscious realization or without, it will not matter for as they say you will be known by your works.


maybe not all of us are inherently ready to experience the extrapolation of unity into this new world as yet, but i believe that all will, eventually.

it is true not all are ready, but they could have been if only they would have looked beyond the apparent. there were many signs and signals given to assist but there were also much that we, hu-mans [higher universal-man], did to obscure the truth as well. but as ra so distinctly put it "there is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point..." definitively giving us the statement that sooner or later we will learn the lessons and graduate.


all may be perfect, in its becoming, and apparent process. i personally feel there's no major rush for me to return to source - i'm enjoying my discovery/mystery! my perception of truth is subject to change at the drop of a hat, if something or someone comes along to inspire new resonating truths.

each of us will decide based upon our free will whether we are ready to leave this level of learning. it will have much to do with whether the karma issues have been resolved or not. also there is always the fact of how much did you bring with you from prior life existences that you "unlocked" while here - that "unlocking" doesn't have to conscious awareness attached only just accessed. if what you hold is changeable then it isn't a truth - it is merely an opinion or simply a perception.

brother asa

[Sammy]

each of us will decide based upon our free will whether we are ready to leave this level of learning. it will have much to do with whether the karma issues have been resolved or not. also there is always the fact of how much did you bring with you from prior life existences that you "unlocked" while here - that "unlocking" doesn't have to conscious awareness attached only just accessed. if what you hold is changeable then it isn't a truth - it is merely an opinion or simply a perception.

brother asa

i agree 100%, the funny thing is everything we have done is opinion from our perception. the truth and balance has always been here, we have just been trying to figure out what that is exactly and/or means. almost anyone could convince themself they have found the answers, its not untill someone else offers a different perspective when we start to head toward the truth. even this truth is only the current truth, because chances are it will be seen a different and better way in the future. this is good though, thats our growth.

what we have now is a big gap of current truth, to the masses of the world. there are many truths out there depending on the perspective your basing your observations (example: city life to country life), or what i call our foundation (expected way of life). when this isnt fullfilled by others within that way, its crippling mentaly and sometimes physicaly. its realy a deep pain to have the thought "they truly dont care about what happens to me", which also usualy involves something traumatic. however to you "they" is only the people you know of. we know we are not this way and its around the world, but its not known around the world (in every mind). our global foundation is as sturdy as a fault line, and reacts about the same if you try to touch it.

our foundation can change though, its just a frame of mind and how we walk toward the truth. this gap can be closed by the knowledge of truth, and applying those to the frames of mind. making our current frame of mind, the one that speaks the most truth and supporting our growth. each frame of mind would be a style of life, not a restricted way of thinking but the acts they will want to do within these truths.

if this is reduced to a single current, the expression would be the same as any society being the full spectrum of life. or rather we would all be working toward the same goal and also want to, not "have" to and express that individualy.

[Asa]

i agree 100%, the funny thing is everything we have done is opinion from our perception. the truth and balance has always been here, we have just been trying to figure out what that is exactly and/or means. almost anyone could convince themself they have found the answers, its not untill someone else offers a different perspective when we start to head toward the truth. even this truth is only the current truth, because chances are it will be seen a different and better way in the future. this is good though, thats our growth.

correct! as ra points out this density is not the density of understanding. in this density it is enough to grasp the knowledge that truths exist and to seek toward the discovery of those truths. it is not for us to find any real truths at this density, we will work with perceptions and opinions seeking toward [an infinite process] discovery of that which exists to be found. the key to this density is to come to the knowledge that this is true and simply continue to seek higher and higher knowledge upon which we can build wisdom.


what we have now is a big gap of current truth, to the masses of the world. there are many truths out there depending on the perspective your basing your observations (example: city life to country life), or what i call our foundation (expected way of life). when this isnt fullfilled by others within that way, its crippling mentaly and sometimes physicaly. its realy a deep pain to have the thought "they truly dont care about what happens to me", which also usualy involves something traumatic. however to you "they" is only the people you know of. we know we are not this way and its around the world, but its not known around the world (in every mind). our global foundation is as sturdy as a fault line, and reacts about the same if you try to touch it.

what we have aren't truths but illusions based on faulty perceptions and opinions. there is the perception that as a physicalness other-selves owes me something and when other-selves fails to render to me that which i perceive to be owed the perceived lack produces an emotional and/or physical reaction. grasping that you are not a physicalness having a physical experience but a spiritualness having a physical experience then can lead you to the acquisition of the knowledge that you aren't owed anything. you are here as a spiritualness to learn through the experience of physicalness and the lack you perceive is simply one of the lessons you who here to use to learn. it is how you react to the perceived lack that demonstrates whether the lesson has been learned or not. if the perceived lack causes "crippling mental or physical" reaction or any reaction at all then the lesson isn't learned--you still consider yourself your physicalness. every event, every condition encountered is simply a lesson to be learned. the key is to realize that and to look for the lesson.


our foundation can change though, its just a frame of mind and how we walk toward the truth. this gap can be closed by the knowledge of truth, and applying those to the frames of mind. making our current frame of mind, the one that speaks the most truth and supporting our growth. each frame of mind would be a style of life, not a restricted way of thinking but the acts they will want to do within these truths.

that is what all the teachings have been about throughout the ages by all the masters. it is what ra brought to us through l/l research. it is not so much as truths as it is the grasping of the reality of our own existence within 3d. it is about each individual, each must only work upon himself and by doing so will by virtue of all working toward the same goal become a unified whole. by all gaining the same knowledge then there will be only one frame of mind.


if this is reduced to a single current, the expression would be the same as any society being the full spectrum of life. or rather we would all be working toward the same goal and also want to, not "have" to and express that individualy.

ra referred to it as all the people on the planet being able to "grasp the needle and point it in the same direction". it is not about having to do anything, it is about realizing that the reality is this is the way it is and conforming with that reality. we are a non-physical energetic consciousness that we sometimes call "our higher self" that is made from the intelligent/conscious consummate pieces of creator [stardust] and not our 3d physicalness that is here to first grasp that is what we are and second to learn, expand, and grow that infinite being that we are. if everyone on the planet could "get this" overnight then what would come out of it would be an existence where everyone contributes based on their talents and skills and receives based on their needs.

brother asa

[MarkM]

correct! as ra points out this density is not the density of understanding. in this density it is enough to grasp the knowledge that truths exist and to seek toward the discovery of those truths. it is not for us to find any real truths at this density, we will work with perceptions and opinions seeking toward [an infinite process] discovery of that which exists to be found. the key to this density is to come to the knowledge that this is true and simply continue to seek higher and higher knowledge upon which we can build wisdom.

well, i have really enjoyed your responses to sammy's and my posts! you have given me many fresh viewpoints to think about, and to feel about.

i do wonder though, and would like to ask your opinion, and i am trying to blend my intellect with my perceived level of gut-understanding of what you seem to be communicating - these truths of which you speak, unavailable to us now in an absolute sense but which become available in higher densities - do you feel that within this infinite process of seeking, truths do become apparent in an absolute (which i gather as to your intent with the capitalization) sense, no longer obfuscated by any mystery, before attainment of 8th density or reunion with the infinite? i'm just trying to get clear on your basic thesis as regards your earlier statements regarding the absoluteness of truth.

i wonder how truths differ from truths, from your viewpoint. i feel that it's possible that any truth may always be, (within the 'distortion' field of oneness invested into manyness) distorted, and necessarily subject to being intrinsically illusary by nature, although perhaps becoming more vividly resembling the one infinite intelligence as one progresses through the densities. to me it seems the plurality of 'truths' suggests a concept of separation/distortion.

do you think it could be possible that the entire range of experiencing beyond the infinite still 'potential' of experience which is the one infinite intelligence could be wrapped in mystery to some extent? wouldn't this perhaps render truths as being not universally absolute to any entity, sub-logos or smc?


ra: i am ra. the galaxy and all other things of material of which you are aware are products of individualized portions of intelligent infinity. as each exploration began, it, in turn, found its focus and became co-creator. using intelligent infinity each portion created an universe and allowing the rhythms of free choice to flow, playing with the infinite spectrum of possibilities, each individualized portion channeled the love/light into what you might call intelligent energy, thus creating the so-called natural laws of any particular universe.

each universe, in turn, individualized to a focus becoming, in turn, co-creator and allowing further diversity, thus creating further intelligent energies regularizing or causing natural laws to appear in the vibrational patterns of what you would call a solar system. thus, each solar system has its own, shall we say, local coordinate system of illusory natural laws. it shall be understood that any portion, no matter how small, of any density or illusory pattern contains, as in an holographic picture, the one creator which is infinity. thus all begins and ends in mystery.

again, i really value your posts, and i would only like to continue to communicate with you about this, and check that i'm not misunderstanding your jist. mark

[Apophis]

wow talk about a community introspection!

some how this is exactly what was needed to "crystallize" the thoughts and emotions that were encircling my life.

brother asa, thank you for deepening our understanding of universal law.

the only comment i have is about truth. is there not but one, single, absolute, truth in the entirety of existence. by this i mean; there is only one truth, right? other truths are commonly accepted truths, such as the color of the sky. other planets may have other colors in the sky, and other people may agree on other common truths. yet essentially there is only one truth.

furthermore, the revelations gained from the study of this truth are expressed in our fundamental laws. and as a people, nay, as a person, this may constitute the greatest of gifts to produce for the world around them.

if that is the case.... then this world has been distracted for far far too long.

-apophis

[MarkM]

i knew you'd chime in here, apophis! yeah!

one truth, perhaps, not existing apart from us but yet paradoxically, unknowable; serving yet as the impetus for upward drive throughout the densities. written or hard-wired into our infinite identification with source, yet never apprehended in any entire sense of the word whilst we journey and discover. (flashes of great intuitive moments of 'aha!' notwithstanding) an inner base-program, as we experiment with love and its outcomes, awaiting or becoming an upgraded software package which alters and refines the inner/outer landscape.

one truth may exist as the basis of all experiencing, yet perhaps never as a separate condition outside of our being, the caveat being that the creator accepted this 'carrot before the horse' trade-off of accepting infinite mystery as an antidote to infinite potential without experiencing... indeed, if you are omnipotent and all knowing of truth, how can you experience?

from the one (unknowable) truth we may have sprung, accepting functional working, relative little truths in order to experience infinite diversity, building upon these truths bit by bit, in accordance with happily accepting the challenge of mystery and evolution. (faith? consciously seeking love in all things with patience and discipline?) these relative truths are what may be gained and worked on, they perhaps being the vehicle for upward momentum? in this i'd offer, hold on to your truths, yet let them be malleable and open to change and refinement! old, outworn truths may have their lasting value in having brought you to where you are, at present.

i do have a little truth which works for me... as i go, i continue to feel more in love and at peace with everything! or so i gather... actually, as i go, i find that that which holds me up in love becomes more obvious to me. i find that the issues as yet undealt with in my life are becoming condensed into raw nuggets which seem harder, but yet i admit that with this process they become less mysterious and more urgent - more amenable to being dealt with... more clear.

my feelings, based on relatively limited means. mark

[Asa]

i do wonder though, and would like to ask your opinion, and i am trying to blend my intellect with my perceived level of gut-understanding of what you seem to be communicating - these truths of which you speak, unavailable to us now in an absolute sense but which become available in higher densities - do you feel that within this infinite process of seeking, truths do become apparent in an absolute (which i gather as to your intent with the capitalization) sense, no longer obfuscated by any mystery, before attainment of 8th density or reunion with the infinite? i'm just trying to get clear on your basic thesis as regards your earlier statements regarding the absoluteness of truth.

mark, don't try to blend your intellect into your gut understanding. it is through your intuition, your gut-understanding, that in this 3d you will make the progress that it has to offer. your intellect is solely to provide the grist for the mill of your intuition. it is through you intellect that you accumulate knowledge and it is that knowledge that your intuition turns into wisdom. look not at events from the intellectual heights but from the common ground of feelings, live from how it feels balanced by discernment and discretion not by what you rationally conclude.

the answer to the question of whether in the unfolding process of ascending these truths become apparent in a knowing way is yes, they will become apparent in a knowing way. you can only truly know and understand when you have been immersed in the actual experience of something. we can become aware and observe aspects of the truths but you cannot understand or truly know it until you have "lived it". as a child you were told that a stove was hot but merely having an awareness of the truth that the stove was hot was not knowing it. you came to know and understand it when you experienced the hot stove.

take for instance the only real aspect of the primal truth that in this 3d we can comprehend but not know, the law of one. we can gain an awareness of this truth or law by simply being observant. an example i often use, you're in line at the grocery store. the checkout clerk is obviously having a miserable day and is being rather obnoxious with everyone that he or she waits on. you have a choice, you can approach the clerk with a matching attitude or you can comprehend that here is a lesson. you instead decide to raise your vibrations increasing your light level. as you step in front of the clerk you have a huge smile and put out the friendliness greeting that you can manage. the effect is that the clerk in turn gets lifted in vibration which increases their light and suddenly their mood improves greatly. why? how did that work? the short answer of course is that it can only work if you and the clerk are connected as one.

by simply observing the effect and cause then you can get a glimpse of a truth. can i understand and know oneness and how we are connected? no, to understand and know i must be able to fully experience that oneness and connectedness. at the higher levels one comes to know and understand that oneness to the point that you can use intelligent energy to work with connectedness to achieve results. when you are at that point then you will have gained a knowing and understanding of the law of one. ra teach/learns the law of one because at their level they have "experienced" it.


i wonder how truths differ from truths, from your viewpoint. i feel that it's possible that any truth may always be, (within the 'distortion' field of oneness invested into manyness) distorted, and necessarily subject to being intrinsically illusary by nature, although perhaps becoming more vividly resembling the one infinite intelligence as one progresses through the densities. to me it seems the plurality of 'truths' suggests a concept of separation/distortion.

if by distortion we mean that it is like the image in the fun house mirror then no it will never be that kind of distorted. there is no plurality of 'truths' there is only one truth and that is the infinite creator. all others that we observe and call laws or truths are merely aspects of the one truth. you can see it clearly in the ra quote you selected--everything begins and ends with the infinite creator. all else is simply a product or derivative of the one. in the quote everything begins with individualized portions of intelligent energy, intelligent energy is simply another way of referring to the one. the appearance of plurality is simply the same illusion that makes 3d entities appear to be separate.

brother asa

[Asa]

do you think it could be possible that the entire range of experiencing beyond the infinite still 'potential' of experience which is the one infinite intelligence could be wrapped in mystery to some extent? wouldn't this perhaps render truths as being not universally absolute to any entity, sub-logos or smc?

all begins in mystery and all ends in mystery. we are derivatives of and came forth from the infinite intelligence yet we know not and cannot know infinite intelligence until we are once again merged back with it. our dance through the out breath and in breath of infinite intelligence is so that when we return back to where we came we can bring with us the sum total of all that we have amassed during our experiencing. for what purpose and why? that is a mystery unknown to us. the truths that we come to know are merely aspects or characteristics of intelligent energy. these aspects or characteristics are like radioactive decay, predictable and without change. just as radioactive materials can be relied upon to decay at a particular rate and manner so too can these aspects or characteristics that we refer to as truths or laws be relied upon to be as predictable and without change.


again, i really value your posts, and i would only like to continue to communicate with you about this, and check that i'm not misunderstanding your jist. mark

there is only so much you can gain by introspection or through putting knowledge gained upon paper to allow subjective intuition space to work. it is through dialog and discourse that our inner guidance can make known what is correct and what is not correct. is it any wonder why in the ancient mystery schools the masters taught not a structured curriculum but allowed the free flow of questions and answers to guide the way? i have always loved the way ra made it absolutely clear that when one has discourse upon a subject it is always a bi-directional process. teach/learn, learn/teach, you can't have one without the other. if you teach/learn that what you do not know then both the teacher and the learner are both cheated.

brother asa

[Asa]

one truth may exist as the basis of all experiencing, yet perhaps never as a separate condition outside of our being, the caveat being that the creator accepted this 'carrot before the horse' trade-off of accepting infinite mystery as an antidote to infinite potential without experiencing... indeed, if you are omnipotent and all knowing of truth, how can you experience?

quite simply by creating individual portions of yourself and then having those portions "work" their way back home while manifesting through love infinite the will to "learn lessons" that create experiences. being omnipotent and all knowing does not equate to not desiring to experience. although you may know everything there is to know about an experience that is a poor substitute for going through the actual experiencing event. if you were intelligent energy, intelligent infinity, how would you go about creating a way in which you could actually go through the experiencing event? think about a computerized system that uses outlying sensors to register activity. the registering of the activity is only worthwhile if it gets "brought home" to the base computer.


from the one (unknowable) truth we may have sprung, accepting functional working, relative little truths in order to experience infinite diversity, building upon these truths bit by bit, in accordance with happily accepting the challenge of mystery and evolution. (faith? consciously seeking love in all things with patience and discipline?) these relative truths are what may be gained and worked on, they perhaps being the vehicle for upward momentum? in this i'd offer, hold on to your truths, yet let them be malleable and open to change and refinement! old, outworn truths may have their lasting value in having brought you to where you are, at present.

mark is correct. do not abandon that which you have achieved. in freemasonry it is taught that construction begins with a cornerstone and then layer by layer the building rises. there will be stones that will be laid aside and used later, there will be stones that will be found to be unfit for use in the construction of your building but you would never see the building completed if at every whim you torn down all that you have constructed and started over again.

brother asa

[Apophis]

"this is unreal." - my mind cannot comprehend the oneness which is present here.

my father has similar advice, as he and i are one.

[Xisto]

summarizing very briefly the previous content as i view it: truth: all of what there is, all inof) itself, without definition, categorization or any kind of personalized interference derived from subjective perception, opinion, taste etc. etc.

distortion: the presence of any such interferences in dealings with all of what there is, i.e., truth.

this very same ideal (lack of) correlation between object matter and sensory perception relies even on "sacred" texts such as the bible's genesis, when man (and woman) were punished by god by what can be translated so simply as into self-consciousness and the subsequent evaluation of anything whithin the physical realm.

point in case: we would not have been made in order to think, but just to act our lives out on instinctive behavior, living as one with all things.

and that we would have lost, bible or no bible, once we have seen ourselves as different.

in that same sense, oneness would be nothing more than a (retro)active step into what could (should?) have been our very nature, so we'd be actually looking for our own core outside the realm of self, yet lost in the contradiction (or paradox) of doing so under the guise of self-conscious intelligence.

it is a riddle trapped inside a charade, because the final achievement of the final objective to all of such intellectualized dealings --- falling back into perfect love, or ideal innocence --- cannot help itself from starting to look as something similar to a sucessful result of a personal struggle guided by a self-guidance book, when a question would always remain: is this good enough as i got into it under an externally given set of conduct?

that was the point about the "culturally uneducated infant" and "the amazon native" (no rousseaunesque "bon sauvage", but rather a tentative description of a human being possibly devoid of the evaluative comparative factor.

i do know how that feels, btw, having "been there, done that" on at least three occasions during my lifetime. no, i was not guided there on any of those chances, but surely have been guided out.

hope to be there again, sometime, but then i do know that such a state does exist, the "problem" being the sheer vulnerability that it does inevitably bring along.

[MarkM]

hi xisto,

one might consider in this, if i'm reading you somewhat as intended, that a difference between (1) the naive neophyte; the innocent of the garden, the fool of the tarot - uninvested into the infinity of deploying self into duality and it's endless seeming relativities... and, at the other end of 3d, (2) the experienced one; graduable from 3d; having moved into a practised, accomplished and habitual lifestyle - aligned with universal purpose (love) and once again merging into identification with the law of one - is the acquisition of wisdom.

perhaps somewhere along this route, infinite complexity and duality and relativity become equated somewhat increasingly with all as being one - one love, one identity, and so on. this is what asa seems to have equated with 'pointing the needle', to paraphrase ra. here, outer-seeming circumstance may be seen/felt to be none other than being aspects of self as opposed to being separate and independently real. mark

[Asa]

hi mark and xisto,

very perceptive! perhaps you might wish to ponder, contemplate and meditate upon this. ra gave instruction that the ultimate achievement in 3d is look upon self and upon other-self and see creator. that is based upon the truth that our highest consciousness, which is the controller of this physicalness, is nothing more than the creator [at least a differentiated fragment of creator]. therefore self and other-self is one or unity. if other-self is unity then any interaction i have with other-self is simple an interaction with self. self is creator; therefore, any use of free will in how self reacts to interaction with other-self is an experience had by creator. such a mystery, such a paradox is a joy to behold. i perceive that the point xisto makes is that we are simply in the process of rediscovery of that which we have had all along. it is not the destination, although driven by the passion for that destination, that is of import but the journey of discovery on the way to that destination that is the gift to creator.

brother asa

[MarkM]

thank you for this, brother asa!

i find that a useful mental touchstone to employ while pondering these things is to consider the example of the holograph. a holographic photo-plate containing a holographic image may be shattered, yet in every fragment of the plate will be seen the full image.

similarly, ra tells us that as with a holographic plate, every portion of the infinite creator, regardless of size, contains the entirety of the infinite creator in full. to me this great unfathomable mystery is a key to beginning to apprehend the essence of the loo, and apprehending how our oneness may exist at a deeper level of reality than apparent manyness of entities, complexities of situations and grains of sand.

every experience and apparency indeed seems to be a direct experiencing of the creator, with we being the modem of that experiencing - almost as if our experiencing with mystery/discovery defines the purpose of our journey - individualized entities themselves actually being something like the sensory organs of the creator. in this, i'd offer the thought that the creator would have us each serve as a different slant or unique viewpoint on mystery, continuing our journey of divine discovery through the densities as opposed to feeling that we are here as the result of some failure to develop or to re-unite.

in the sense of the ideas of the holographic example and all time being simultaneous, the infinitely diverse range of experiencing throughout the infinite universe exists as one divine experience, accessible to all/one. the ongoing realization of love from not just one but infinite viewpoints may be the joy of the creator.

we may rightly say that all this experiencing is illusary, and therefore feel that it is as a whole something to escape or to see behind - yet i don't imagine that we can come to greater love and awareness without going through it first. it all seems to be divinely purposed for having us come more and more into aligning with love and joy through our free will choices.

certain harsh seeming yet divinely ordained lessons may be rendered redundant and fall away - stop repeating - as we learn to see the loving intent of the lessons, and gradually absorb into our being the next step in the lessening of opposition to universal love so as to be able to experience/create higher, wider, deeper and more grand spheres of existance.

my personal sharing, meant only as inspiration for all. mark

[Sammy]

mark is correct. do not abandon that which you have achieved. in freemasonry it is taught that construction begins with a cornerstone and then layer by layer the building rises. there will be stones that will be laid aside and used later, there will be stones that will be found to be unfit for use in the construction of your building but you would never see the building completed if at every whim you torn down all that you have constructed and started over again.

brother asa

i agree the masonry begins with a cornerstone. but the construction of the building began wayyyy before such laying. it most certainly doesnt lesten your example, as your point is very valid. i've done alot of construction, and i love using it as a tool for philosophy.

first whats done are the utilities are ran to the spot where the structure will be placed. the utility lines have to be a certain depth and the fill dirt used to fill the trenches has to be compacted for integrity. now the outline of the foundation can be dug out, you have to dig and fill/compact anything prior to this so the ground is at a consistant compaction all the way around. when its dug out you have to compact the ground where the foundation is going to be poured, this is also for integrity so the foundation wont settle too much (hopefully).

after its compacted and usualy tested by a state official (every compaction is tested by a density tester), you can put down the sand and gravel for the "grade". the grade is rather complex but basicly you have a refferance point that you start your measurements from for your required depth. you can use a string from the point to reach the area your measuring, but they also have lasers that beep when your on your mark. this is to ensure that the foundation is level from end to end. once everything is flat you can now build your concrete frame for the foundation. this also has to be level ontop equal with the base, to maintain the grade. there is also a rebar mesh thats inside the frame to give the concrete some more stability and reduce cracking. the framework on these are usualy complex as well, because of vent holes and access holes and all kinds of stuff.

fill the frame with concrete, let it dry/cure, and take the frame off (there is a liquid that is sprayed on the frame so the concrete doesnt stick to the wood). usualy the majority of the foundation is filled in with dirt so just a couple feet is sticking out of the ground, which ofcourse has to be compacted and tested.

wallah! you got a foundation haha.

i know this is alot, and is my point. without this foundation to ensure the life of its structure, it will fall before its time.the better the foundation connects to the earth, the better the stability will be for the structure. the better the structure connects with its foundation, the better it will fair against the elements. like the pyramids, its basicly just however long it takes the elements to ware it down. ofcourse now even more so since we have taken off the outer stones. no matter how amazing what your seeing is, there might be trouble where you dont see. when the foundation goes, it takes everything above it with it.

[Apophis]

mark, i glimpsed a vision while reading your post, as if a holographic tile was smashed and spread on a table, some of the pieces spun and flipped giving them a different orientation to the original. what you are doing is re-orientating the broken fragments because it makes it easier to see where they fit back into the original position. so as to complete the "puzzle" that was placed before you.

what interests me, is that all the puzzle pieces have the same image as the original completed puzzle, yet they are still pieces. how does one figure out what piece went where?


sammy, you are very literal and example specific, something i admire. however the great pyramid was founded upon solid bedrock, this is not to say you are wrong, this is to say there are many ways to build a foundation. i do agree that there must be preparation of the earth to accept the new structure, as you have said, the stronger the connection the stronger the structure.

everyone is right. everyone has a point of view, and in the situation as one sees it, there is one right thing they should do. this is the grandeur of creation, we balance the situation with one another, each in there own right, correct.


both of these responses say similar things. every piece of the puzzle is equal to the puzzle itself.

what am i
-apophis

[Sammy]

mark, i glimpsed a vision while reading your post, as if a holographic tile was smashed and spread on a table, some of the pieces spun and flipped giving them a different orientation to the original. what you are doing is re-orientating the broken fragments because it makes it easier to see where they fit back into the original position. so as to complete the "puzzle" that was placed before you.

what interests me, is that all the puzzle pieces have the same image as the original completed puzzle, yet they are still pieces. how does one figure out what piece went where?


sammy, you are very literal and example specific, something i admire. however the great pyramid was founded upon solid bedrock, this is not to say you are wrong, this is to say there are many ways to build a foundation. i do agree that there must be preparation of the earth to accept the new structure, as you have said, the stronger the connection the stronger the structure.

everyone is right. everyone has a point of view, and in the situation as one sees it, there is one right thing they should do. this is the grandeur of creation, we balance the situation with one another, each in there own right, correct.


both of these responses say similar things. every piece of the puzzle is equal to the puzzle itself.

what am i
-apophis

no worries but the example for the pyramid was, the foundation connecting to the earth, and the structure connecting well to the foundation. i wasnt describing how they formed the pyramids foundation, just that it does this connecting well.

i didnt know about the bedrock foundation but i would say they picked a good foundation for connecting to earth. however i do believe a more modern foundation might fare better against forces of nature, as the rock can be prone to cracking.

[MarkM]

mark, i glimpsed a vision while reading your post, as if a holographic tile was smashed and spread on a table, some of the pieces spun and flipped giving them a different orientation to the original. what you are doing is re-orientating the broken fragments because it makes it easier to see where they fit back into the original position. so as to complete the "puzzle" that was placed before you.

what interests me, is that all the puzzle pieces have the same image as the original completed puzzle, yet they are still pieces. how does one figure out what piece went where?

well, apophis, the truly amazing thing here may be that when one looks at the holographic example in terms of the loo, each seeming fragment is the entire image; or the 'all there is'. when you break the tile, each piece is the only one, and is whole. (big loo mystery, here!)

rather than trying to re-unite the 'pieces', it may be that the draw towards higher densities prompts each of us to find the 'all there is' within ourselves. you may be the only piece there is!

and what a piece you are... :)

for each of us, it may be that our existence as separate entities is itself an illusary apparency, the challenge here being to find each other within ourselves - seeing others as having a primary reality not as outer seeming and separate beings but literally us - literally truly apprehended only by seeing them within ourselves, as ourselves; outward appearances notwithstanding.

to take this a little further, one may consider that everything which seems to be outside of us, all the way up to the galaxies, etc., has its true reality as being inner aspects of you. in the case of you, apophis, the entire majesty of all there is up to and including intelligent infinity may exist within the bounds of your own personal being, with you having used your creative powers to manifest the gorgeous tapestry of manyness in all its splendour, spun out of your infinite potential in order for you to experience love, cameraderie, solace and warmth, as well as the full range of everything else.

if there is only one of us here, then the same holds true for me, and every seemingly separate entity and seeming separate fragment.

putting all these pieces together would seem accomplishable paradoxically by percieving that there are no partial pieces to begin with, only one whole, ever. this is why, for me, the holograph metaphor is such a valuable concept; only hinting at oneness in our world of duality/manyness.

in this i suggest that we are truly not apart or separate beings, and as we continue to go through lessons which are designed to bring us to this level of perception, we'll more and more realize that which i have never seen adequately put into words!

there may be only that which is inside you. that which seems outer is not really, but 'out' there for the purpose of experiencing a dynamic and becoming love. i am your eternal being and you are mine. to love my self is to have the self-same love for you. my current experience seems limited to this persona in 2011, yet the true fullness of who i am includes all there is and all who is. this is how the 'stones are alive'... they are me - they are you - they are one. all arises from the great i am which we are. we are not so much fragments as we are the whole enchilada. we are pretending to be apart yet are not.

only in the direction of within ourselves may we truly find each other, and going back in to source we find the one being in which we finally see that there is only one, of which we are merely temporary aspects - true love. one love. one soul, one spirit, one great big me.

i remember when i was a kid, i wondered if there was only me having a dream, and everyone and every thing was in my imagination. all these years later, i still wonder the same thing, but have since also wondered if each other person and thing are just differing focuses of me, no less real and imaginary. i am not a figment of your imagination dude, just so you know! ;) i am you. it's the separation of entity which seems, after all is said and done, to be imaginary.

all of this is strictly my own viewpoint only, not intended to represent or suggest your truth.

hmm - great big me... good name for a band! markish

[MarkM]

sammy, your points are well taken, and resonate strongly - as does asa's comment! really good reminders for me.

i live in canada not far from vast outcroppings of the canadian shield, and near here in the woods exists an ancient ridge of granite upon which were carved in some unknown times a field of 'petroglyphs' which i have seen. the ancientness is apparent, as the rainwater has carved narrow but deep gullies across the script, and these gullies are many feet deep. the script is very similar to the phoenician, who are acknowleged to have been a seafaring people of great reknown, and i wouldn't be surprised to find that these glyphs are older than 3000 years.

yet, the rocky outcroppings themselves have been there - although perhaps ground down to some extent by the last ice age which sent glaciers through here as recently as 11000 years ago - for perhaps hundreds of millions of years! certainly, since the petroglyphs have been there, the local landscape remains unchanged but for the arising and passing of the flora and fauna of many generations.

this reminds me of multi-generational families occupying the same old homestead for centuries or longer. my parents still live in the same house they built in 1960 for their new family, yet my sense of sacredness of that homestead is profound, and my sense of grounding every time i visit is strong. much has changed over the years but much has stayed the same.

all this has served to have me dig deep for my own grounding, meditating on that which grounds me personally and connects me to my mother, the earth. i guess i vary between feeling un-connected and feeling connected. i, like anyone, will soon pass from this form, but i feel that what grounds me in a metaphysical sense - that which seems more permanent to which i can hitch my horse, is that which i seek as i undergo so much change and circumstance in my life.

i guess we all build our houses, and ponder upon the individual stones, and in any one moment we are at a loss to define the value of any one stone with which we have become accustomed. it may be that the very stone we need to set aside for awhile will be seen at some point to be the very stone which completes us; once we are looking for a capstone. mark

[Asa]

apophis, sammy, mark, all,

such a great thread full of such helpful information to those who find their journeying not yet to our point in the journey. all i, and all fellow journeyers, can do is post signs along the path of our journeys. journeys guided by unseen helping hands. it is not a viewpoint we share but the knowledge gained from our travels. beginning as the fool who steps off into space with only faith that he will not come to harm, we take the first step toward a goal that we don't in the beginning comprehend, gnothi seauton-know thyself. the search to find out what you really are. then comes the first discovery that i am what i am is merely a fragment of the primal beginning intelligent energy. the further search and discovery of the inherent knowledge that i am what i am is merely a single unit of the all that is all. followed by growth and expansion upon being simply a unit of all that is all to include the knowledge that i am what i am is merely a holograph of all that is all containing the entirety of all that is all.

my journey, if i so choose, results in sto. during this physicality i can choose to create sign posts to assist and aid others along their path when and if they exercise free will to seek to travel a path toward the destination that i travel. these are nothing more than aids to unknown travelers, sometimes obscure in meaning for some, others time invaluably clear. if those who had already traversed much of the path had the ability to "download" into seekers coming behind that which they had already discovered there would be no need for 3d to exist. instead in this version of 3d we are only capable of attempting with limited ability to "point the way".

i try to create for those who have not as yet traveled as far as i, some means, however meager, to know that they are not alone and where their journey should take them. it is not for me to determine how they get there, what route they take, or even what obstructively blocked avenues they travel. detours and backtracking is common but as viewed as being filled with discovery it will add interest and often fun to the trip. i seek only with love to offer aid and assistance and it is up to those who discover what i offer to accept it or not.

the discovery for this portion of the journey within a journey is knowledge of the primal first law--we are all one. within the hologram that is i lies all that has been and all that will ever be. i contain not only all the 3d journeys within the journey but all journeys within the journey that is at all "densities". overseen by my 6d self via the 3d constructs which makes up this vehicle of flesh, blood, and bone, aided by other-selves that exist at various other "densities" and "sub-densities", i through the use of free will travel to a destination that is felt but not known. like the 3d birds who are driven by instinct to migrate south without knowledge of exactly where south they will land so am i "driven" to seek a destination the details of which are unknown.

i garner great joy as i look upon each day as simply more discovery and unfolding of the intricateness of the divine creator and the grasping of the way conscious unfolding of these times is taking place. i marvel at how every entity involved in the process is a needed and valuable participate in the drama being played out. those who are on the "path" who are in the process of "raising their consciousness", those who are by their own free will are "blind" to the "reality" of this existence in material 3d, those in this 3d existence who are creating the catalyst for the "changes" in "consciousness" that must take place, and all those not in 3d at this time who are assisting in the "transformation" are all a vital and necessary part of the evolution of the this planet and its inhabitants.

so to each i say that you reflect your journey as you perceive it with that perception changing as it unfolds but i also say to you that as a service to others speak out about your journey in as "permanent" a manner as you can so that your tracks will aid others as they wander lost in the desert seeking the promised land described as flowing with milk and honey but with no knowledge of where that destination can be truly found. always remember that in the analogy just referenced the participants in that journey, like us, didn't know where they were going until they arrived there after having encountered many "learning" events.

asa

[Xisto]

"i perceive that the point xisto makes is that we are simply in the process of rediscovery of that which we have had all along. it is not the destination, although driven by the passion for that destination, that is of import but the journey of discovery on the way to that destination that is the gift to creator."

asa

precisely. and if there is a creator. it is not upon us to know. to understand, perhaps. to believe, maybe. but we will do not know, in fact, even once (if) we accept that such is told by anyone else. it is the experience.

[Asa]

precisely. and if there is a creator. it is not upon us to know. to understand, perhaps. to believe, maybe. but we will do not know, in fact, even once (if) we accept that such is told by anyone else. it is the experience.

it is the experience that provides the input to the grist mill but it is the finished product that contains the most value. since it is possible that we are both speaking from similar positions but using different labels perhaps i should explain it this way. from my perspective it is the reverse of the labels you have used--it is not upon us at this juncture to understand but it is upon us to know. example, i can know how to calculate the area of a circle without understanding the mathematical principles that makes it so or i can know how to apply pythagoras' theorem without understanding the mathematical proof of that theorem. in the same vein i can know many of the universal principles and concepts without fully understanding how they work. i can understand the law or principle of attraction without fully understanding how like energies attract like energies or like thoughts attract like thoughts.

to me there is a great distinction between knowing something and understanding it. i know there is a creator--it is scientifically proven in the sense that my perception from observation is that creator is more of an energetic intelligence instead of the concept of a two armed, two legged being. science has postulated and then provided indirect evidence that everything began with a big bang from which everything else was formed. the big bang was an energetic event that spewed that energy outward. the energy contained even in the smallest fragment contains a form of intelligence that causes that small fragment to seek out and adhere to another fragment etc, etc. hence the exponentiation of that intelligence as each part of the universe forms grows greater and greater fragment by fragment. i can know these things but not understand how that intelligence equated as creator actually works.

as ra pointed out this is not the density of understanding but he did not say it was not the density of knowing. implicit in ra's teaching of the law of one is that we can know the law of one but we will not be able to understand it at this density. to me in the metaphysical/spiritual realm knowing and understanding are not two sides of the same coin. they are as distinct and separate as would be a dime and a quarter. to complicate matters even more there are varying levels of knowing. i can range from knowing of something to actually having a knowing of it from having experienced it. example, back to the mathematics, i can know of pythagoras' theorem and have never used it so that my knowing would not be as complete as someone who not only has known of it but has also used and applied it in a "real life" situation.

asa