A question of morality?

[Votan]

please forgive me if this seems like a bit of a ramble.

i have the personal belief that we have a set path that we have chosen to follow in each incarnation; what i mean by this is that we choose certain main factors or events in our life that must happen for us to learn a certain lesson and we also attach certain hurdles like personality defects (maybe a bad way of describing it), for instance, im not very good in crowds they make me feel anxious and dont find myself very good at meeting new people because im quite shy at the best of times.

we can deviate from our path by choice of free will but we cant miss the main events we chose before we incarnated.

one thing that has been puzzling me about this system that i cant quite come to a conclusion about is factoring in the so called 'evils' of the world. if someone offered to murder/steal/rape etc. in the name of helping a friend learn a specific lesson why is it that we look down upon these people and 'hate' them for the deeds that laws have deemed unworthy of freedom.

i myself am also stuck in this view even though my beliefs dictate that these 'criminals' are only helping another soul reach a desired point in developement.

if anybody could give me a hand and shed some light on their views about this please do.

i understand that not everyone shares the same beliefs as i do so if you dont agree that is fine.

[EcyaC]

i had planned on posting my poem in the ascension poetry thread but now that i've read your question/ramble i think it belongs here...

:)


did i choose this?

surely, for every time we choose to feel pain
there is a little of something else we gain
whether or not we feel it to entertain.
when it is there i call it things so profane --
it is like my only reason to complain.
there is not much which i love more than the rain --
i am thankful for anything i attain...

however, there is just something about pain
which causes me to long for some other plane
where it has been flushed down some eternal drain.
could it be it is something here which must reign?
i do feel i am in another's domain --
if nothing here can really be inhumane --
this illusion should drive everyone insane...

what, in the hell, invented this thing called pain?
or is it a link in an infinite chain
in order to give us all we can contain?
without it things would not be mundane or plain --
if i were given the choice i would abstain --
but, perhaps, it is not better to be sane
when restrained in a place completely inane...

[Tenet Nosce]

votan-

experiences occur on many different levels of being. many of which we cannot directly access from here.

how we come to view an experience depends on the mental/emotional framework through which we process it. so on one level, an act is perceived as a crime, while from another it is a gift.

when a child leaves home to go to college, is mom joyful? or sad? or anxious? or relieved? likely, mom is feeling all of these things simultaneously.

i would also offer that if your beliefs are leading you to a conclusion that is untenable, you may want to try revisiting your core beliefs and looking for a hidden contradiction. for example:


...my beliefs dictate that these 'criminals' are only helping another soul reach a desired point in developement.

is that true? i mean, is there any way you can know for sure that a given criminal and victim pair set this up ahead of time?

and if that is really the case, there is a solution. don't press charges. but then again, maybe having the criminal spend some time in prison is part of the plan. who can say?

[Votan]

is that true? i mean, is there any way you can know for sure that a given criminal and victim pair set this up ahead of time?


yes i agree that there is no way i can know for sure that it is entirely true, i have pieced it together from different sources that are possibly wrong themselves but it makes sense to me that we would come here with a certain goal or life path and that we would ask our friends to help us out with them.



and if that is really the case, there is a solution. don't press charges. but then again, maybe having the criminal spend some time in prison is part of the plan. who can say?

this is what is puzzling me, maybe eventually i'll find a new piece of information that pulls it all together for me or changes my viewpoint for the better.

[EcyaC]

i find these quotes to be very fitting...

"ra: we came to your peoples to give the law of one. we wished to impress upon those who wished to learn of unity ... in unity all paradoxes are resolved; all that is broken is healed: all that is forgotten is brought to light...the nature of your language is such that what is distorted cannot, to our knowledge, be fully undistorted ... but only illuminated somewhat...

there is no history as you understand the concept. picture a circle of being. we know the alpha and omega as infinite intelligence. the circle never ceases. it is present... in the creator is all there is... indeed, all is simultaneous...

the higher self, as you call it, is the self which exists with full understanding of the accumulation of experiences which have not yet been understood by the conscious self. the mind/body/spirit totality is a nebulous or vague collection of all that may occur,...this information is made available to the higher self aspect. the higher self may then use these projected probability/possibility vortices in order to better aid in what you would call future life programming...the magical personality is a being of unity, a being of 6th density, and the equivalent of what you call your higher self, and at the same time is a personality enormously rich in variety of experience and subtlety of emotion...

the creation itself is a form of consciousness which is unified. awareness led to the focus of infinity into infinite energy. you have called this by various names, the most common being 'logos' or 'love'. the creator is the focusing of infinity as an aware conscious principle called intelligent infinity. (note: when infinity focuses itself, then creation occurs.) there is unity. this unity is all there is. this unity has a potential and a kinetic. the potential is intelligent infinity, tapping this potential will yield work [or the kinetic part.] this work [or kinetic part] has been called by us, intelligent energy. [yet] there is no difference, potential or kinetic, in unity... in your illusion of physical existence all experience springs from the law of free will or the way of confusion. in another sense, which we are learning, the experiences are this distortion.

the nature of all energy is light, including the inner light which is the guiding star of the self. this is the true nature of all entities.

intelligent infinity discerned a concept; namely, freedom of will of awareness. thus the one intelligent infinity invested itself in an exploration of many-ness. due to the infinite possibilities of intelligent infinity (or the oneness), there is no ending to many-ness. the exploration thus is free to continue infinitely into an eternal present. the next step is an infinite reaction to the creative principle (intelligent energy) following the law of one in one of its basic distortions; namely, freedom of will. thus many, many dimensions, infinite in number, are possible. the energy moves from the intelligent infinity due first to the outpouring of randomized creative force which then creates patterns. these patterns of energy begin to regularize their own rhythms and fields of energy, thus creating dimensions and universes. at this point the physical universes were not yet born. the steps are simultaneous and infinite.

there is no end to your selves, of your journey of seeking, or your perceptions of the creations...the galaxy and all other material things are products of individualized portions of intelligent infinity. as each exploration began, an individualized portion of the one would, in its turn, find its focus and become co-creator. it shall be understood that any portion, no matter how small, of any density or of any illusory pattern contains, as in a holographic picture, the one creator which is infinity. thus all begins and ends in mystery. in truth there is no right or wrong. there is no polarity, for all will be reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex with which you amuse yourself. this belief in polarity is chosen, instead of understanding the complete unity of thought that binds all things together. you are every thing, every being, every emotion, every situation.

the law of one, although beyond all words, may be approximated by saying that all things are one; there is no polarity, no right or wrong, no disharmony, but only one identity. each mind/body/spirit complex is a unique portion of the one creator. jim: “all events are illusions or mysteries because each represents the one creator in one disguise or another, offering us a greater or lesser opportunity to find love, joy, balance and perfection in each moment.”

[MarkM]

it shall be understood that any portion, no matter how small, of any density or of any illusory pattern contains, as in a holographic picture, the one creator which is infinity. thus all begins and ends in mystery.

ahh, yess, this is a great one! (actually, a great compilation, ecyac!)

this is a great meditative muse... imagine, all of infinite creation, creator included, being contained in every imaginable portion of said creation! this is one for the relativist, dualistic human intellect to chew on for a while. while we certainly know that we are experiencing diversity, i do feel it has no real or lasting inherent quality.

i said somewhere before on this forum - when the dualistic mind envisions a unity of being, it may fear winding up as a drop absorbed by the ocean, to lose personal identity.

if our true identity were the one infinite creator, that it may well be more like the drop absorbing the ocean.

we may come to find that our true higher identities are necessarily comprised by all identities and worlds, galaxies, fishponds and moonlets, and we may find that this temporary construct of an identity in 3d is but an infinitessimally small aspect of who we are.

so if we apply this to questions of conduct and morality in particular, we may well consider that all other selves are doing the best they can, given their current perspectives, as are we. the other self is the creator in a veiled format, purposely enmeshed in total mystery as to the 'rulebook' of life. to forgive another their transgressions is to forgive ourselves - or we may beat ourselves up as we beat up others.

perhaps we may look at it as more of forgiving the one infinite creator!! or beating the creator up... yes, you've done it! yes, you have! :o

no matter how convoluted or warped a person's path may seem, it is perfect, imo, in that it is certainly none other than the creator in disguise...

infinite potential is still, unmoving, and without experiencing. perhaps this whole game, the range of densities and range of experience from the tiniest 1st density photon to the most accomplished logoic beings of 7th density, is set up so that the creator can enjoy the beauty of mystery and discovery, trial and error, joy and sorrow, love, wisdom and power waxing and gaining..

ya can't know what challenges the other fellow has taken on for this lifetime, hence judgement is folly. his road, as is yours, is perfect. this is the creator experiencing an infinity of variety of life expression. there are no mistakes... :) eet's all good, mon. i and i luv you, jah! mark

[Angirjuly]

it is nobodys pre planned path to take the free will of anything. we are that of love and light. if i see anyone do any atrocities like you mentioned it is my free will to stop it by what ever means possible. i see balance on an impenigable level. it is my gift as an awakend crystal child.
love you,

[Jeia Ra Manuk]

hello friend,
it appears that our believes(philosophies) are quite the same.

one thing that has been puzzling me about this system that i cant quite come to a conclusion about is factoring in the so called 'evils' of the world. if someone offered to murder/steal/rape etc. in the name of helping a friend learn a specific lesson why is it that we look down upon these people and 'hate' them for the deeds that laws have deemed unworthy of freedom.

what you are referring to i call a system. because we have the illusion of separation we have the illusion of personal choice, belief, knowledge and of course truth. this illusion doesn't only exist to confuse us into acknowledging the fact that there is no one else on this earth with exactly the same set of believes and truths, but also to guide us to the ultimate exchange of these ideas and truths so that we are able to evolve. while i am in my system creating and shaping my reality, you are in your system also doing that. and you might as well be a part of my system at a point and i can be in yours. we are co-creating the wholeness of shared reality while individually creating our inside reality. thus, if i am to appear in your system that means you already have a part for me to play. it's the dilemma we know in quantum physics; the dilemma of the observer. with out observation, atoms and everything else is in a state of chaos. this also relates to our blind spots... as in what we can't see behind us. while i am looking ahead, everything is in order in my field of vision. behind me, where i can't see, is chaos. our brains have been trained to expect what is behind us, thus once you turn around everything collects and organizes itself. no one can really prove to you they were here before you were born right? you will never know for sure, and this is the main building block of this illusion. once you have your back to me... i don't turn to chaotic matter, i know that because i see myself... how is this possible? well because i am the same observer as you, we are one. this is just scratching the surface. this model gives us the roots of materialization and how it occurs. we are one and we know it, because we share observations. we both see a tree in the yard, and it hardly matters if i see something completely different from you, because i can relate, i can discuss with you the existence of that tree and thus the tree exists. for me the saying, "seeing is believing" fits perfectly right about here. all the possibilities are out of your field of vision and once you choose you create it, you start observing it. you are a part of my system while i am a part of yours... you create me while i create you... thus being one with the creator means being one with me, while for me it is to be with you. just imagine seeing the world out of everybody eyes at the same time... that is how it is going to feel like. whatever you believe will happen to you after death, that is what is going to happen to you. this is where religion fails. it tells us that we all have one place to go... it is one place, sure, but it is different for everyone and that is why we are reborn. if we will all have one destination, we will have no need to return. thus while one person might murder another and think he is going to go to hell for it, the other might do the same but in the name of god and his promised salvation... right? reminds me of a couple things in history. if a person believes he is doing a good thing while doing a bad thing that means that is his ideology and if it is bad for us, that is our ideology. certain peoples ideas are more appealing than others and thus they literally suck people in. education systems are then established. the great unknown has two aspects, idealistic and creative (design). while other organisms in our world are the design aspect we are the idealistic, so do we divide into idealists and designers. the illusion wouldn't hold if it wasn't for these simple, yet complex, roles we play. it is all about individual opinions... that is what we need to get past. there might be people who kill and think it is okay and live in that illusion and die in that illusion and bring all that baggage into their next life. the idea is to have longer life times so that we are able to integrate with one another's systems. accept one another. this is what is going to happen in our next evolutionary step. we might shed one skin. the biological skin. but we will still have the physics skin to shed after that... and who knows how many after...

[Debbie]

i am also of the opinion that we come to face opposition here on earth, and to do our best to learn to love through it. the only way i have been able to rationalize the reason more developed souls are placed here on earth with the less developed souls who enjoy hurting others is to remember that we have far more than one life here, and there truly is no death. there is only death of each body we incarnate into as many of us here know. i have also found that most of us, including me unfortunately, learn the most while going through pain. i truly believe that all of our experiences can be reduced down to 2 forms: joy and learning. one can learn from joyous experiences, but it really seems most of us learn a lot more through painful ones.

to me, god is trying to learn more about him/herself, which is why he/she separated into billions (and probably more) tiny little souls that each of us possess. it seems to me that's why we face such non-light/evil in each incarnation on earth. i am really looking forward to finally getting out of earth's karmic pull so i can incarnate somewhere where there are less sadists then there are here. i have never been the type to enjoy hurting others-even if they have hurt me immensely. so i can't comprehend what makes these negative beings tick. i figure it's mostly a problem of them not having very many incarnations, hence they haven't learned that karma is real. otherwise, why would they continue to do things to purposely hurt others so often? wiser and older souls realize that if we hurt others at all, especially on purpose, we have to eventually experience the same type of pain we put others through.

[scottki]

great poem ecyac!




i myself am also stuck in this view even though my beliefs dictate that these 'criminals' are only helping another soul reach a desired point in developement.

i do not believe someone chooses, pre incarnate, to be gunned down by a stray bullet for example but that is only my opinion. i think we can only predetermine a rough outline. if everything was predetermined then why would ra etc, or wanderers for that matter, bother coming here to try to help lighten the load? they come to try and stop people from being violent etc. like the group meditations that reduce crime, was that predestined? and was it actually a disservice to someone who was looking to learn a lesson? !

that is not to say that criminals should be punished. would you punish a dog when you know exactly why it did what it did? every criminal act can more than likely be explained by past environmental and even biological events. and i am sure the higher density beings think so.