astral "trash"/demons ~ proof that "God" does not ascend??

[tifferella]

okay so we know there is "astral trash" and/or "demons" (can anyone clarify) so isnt this proof that god does not "eventually" ascend everyone/everything

i wonder how does one become astral trash, demon

now lets be real, because of the horrible conditions of the world people are abused and tortured and in turn they become mentally sick and filled with anger and pain and may or may not kill/abuse others... and so i fully conclude that i dont blame inner-city youth, gangs, etc. who become mentally sick and commit crimes~ they were given a horrible world and no there are not options/opportunities/a way out for some people

so do they become astral trash when they die, do the murders in jail become astral trash?

why doesnt the creator raise the vibration of astral trash so: a.) they can know the creator, finally feel love, and their pain can stop b.) they do not influence others to hate/commit crimes/feel distress

[One 66]

tifferella,

in response to your questions, the answer i give is, freewill. it is in freewill that we are given the choice of dwelling in misery of the past or coming out of it strong with understanding and forgiveness. there really is no great mystery to it all...

one 66

[metaman]

a demon is a creature that does not originate in the on the same spiritual path we all embarked on long ago. they are from universes that vibrate at low frequencies. they are not supposed to be here. they have somehow hacked the matrix of our reality.

they have been able to do this because of the relatively low vibrational frequency of the reality we currently exist in. not nearly as low as where they come from. however there are pockets of noxious energy on our plane that they can exist in. this is why they are sometimes confined to a particular geographic location or a house for example.

they are percieved as evil because they resonate at such a low frequency. in thier universe they are normal. the reason they mess with people is to get them into a state of low vibration induced by fear. once they do this then they can hitch a ride on a person and feed off of the fear. if you choose not to fear them, they will have little effect assuming that you are not confined in the same pocket of noxious energy they are.

this is why blessing the space they are living in will sometimes cast them away. the blessing cancels out the negative energy for long enough for them to loose intrest and move on. the best way to get rid of them is to get a shaman to put them back where they are supposed to be. so instead of repelling them, you send them back to thier native universe.

[leo scone]

law of one sez even a heavily service-to-self oriented being can choose to go service-to-others at any time, and virtually instantaneously. so, perhaps it is best not to think of exclusive one-way paths "up" or "down" but rather six lanes of two-way traffic with pretzel-like turnarounds.

there is no thing in creation that is separate from source. there is only source and this subsequent learning about itself through us. even beings who are having what we are perceiving as horrible existences are gaining the experience they need. and while we have free-will at this level to choose to try to effect the outcome of others lives (watch out for sticky karma!) source already is, in totality. there is no action for god to take. his perfection is playing out without a hitch.

and yet it can be painful to watch. ultimately, i have to have great gratitude for the beings whose lives seem trial and misfortune at every turn, that they have chosen to gain those perspectives to return to source that i may not have to (at least in this perceived time around). likewise, i often have gratitude that others do not have to experience that which is difficult in my incarnation.

the intensity of catalyst in this density is directed at allowing for rapid soul evolution. within that, your concern for and about those who are more likely of sts orientation sez you're probably more sto anyway. so do if you can, if you will, and ever love all, from source to astral trash.

[sergejsh]

law of one sez even a heavily service-to-self oriented being can choose to go service-to-others at any time, and virtually instantaneously. so, perhaps it is best not to think of exclusive one-way paths "up" or "down"
what happened to lucipher - he didn't go "up" after "down".
i still can't understand, how that can happen.

[leo scone]

what happened to lucipher - he didn't go "up" after "down".
i still can't understand, how that can happen.

so the story goes. but it is still one creation. lucifer is just another product of source, of god. and there can be nothing outside of creation. so what is the fall? perhaps it is best understood vibrationally. from highest angel lucifer was "thrown down" from his high vibrational place to the very low vibrational density that is necessary for the formation of what we know as matter. perhaps this is what is represented by the fall.

but let's look at this from from another perspective. lucifer is the "bringer of light" and the "prince of darkness". hmmm, dude must be pretty conflicted. anyway, imagine this - that lucifer, as highest of the high, had only one possible aspiration, as does any child: to become their parent, or better. lucifer only had god to emulate, yet one cannot be god of a creation that already has a god. so lucifer created a level of reality wherein the illusion of separation is taken as reality, thus to have a creational universe of his own. but what is he modeling? source, or god if you will. so perhaps lucifer is actually trying to do something positive just like his dad?

now, i know considering all the stories we've been told this might be difficult to consider. and i am not saying that any of this is actually so - that there is a dude named lucifer, or god is a he, or anything. but the possibility i see is this: lucifer so wanted to be a loving creator, which is the model provided by his one and only creator, that he took upon himself the illusion of separation, that he chose to no longer remember and be in oneness with his source, and became a great darkness for the distinct purpose of being that into which the light may be introduced. there is no light without darkness. he gave up his contact with the source of light and love that he might emulate the very same thing, for before the light, before the word, before anything, darkness was on the waters and that was god.

and it is into this wondrous universe that we have opportunity to exist and evolve as emerging lights.

so, could you separate yourself from all you love, from your family, from all you have known, to enshroud yourself in dark forgetting that another might have the opportunity to experience the wondrous emergence into the light of knowing their source, their creator? that might be what lucifer did.

so what is up, what is down? it is one creation, working toward one end/beginning. some folk work the light, some folk work the dark. but no one stands outside of oneness.

[billybobbutterball]

so the story goes. but it is still one creation. lucifer is just another product of source, of god. and there can be nothing outside of creation. so what is the fall? perhaps it is best understood vibrationally. from highest angel lucifer was "thrown down" from his high vibrational place to the very low vibrational density that is necessary for the formation of what we know as matter. perhaps this is what is represented by the fall. .

what a can of worms!

in ken carey's wonderful read, the third millenium, there is a call for positive entity's to have some modicum of appreciation and symphathy carefully beamed to lucifer -- please imagine a towering celestial entity who has vounteered to take on the needed task of upholding the "dark side" ...that part of the polarity dichotomy so important in fueling the process of soul evolution with unpleasant catalyst.

the light associated with lucifer is that of advanced knowledge without wisdom/compassion -- a formula for those adepts of negative polarity.

satan is something else again. from the ra, satan, as we think of "him", comes the information that 'it' is a created thought form... as is the concept of the "blessed virgin mary", a powerful thought form upheld by the prayers and devotion of billions over the centuries.

from carey, satan is a principle designed to hold our material universe in order... when the evolution process became delayed beyond expectation this principle become distorted in a way not intended (sub-logi do make mistakes)

in reading some material reccommended by the steiner champion, nina, the idea was advanced that lucifer is the tempter in the inner realm of the psyche. satan is the tempter in our dealing with the 'outer' world of matter. so, from that we have it that one's influence is paramount in our inner thought life, the other in our dealings with physical expression through the outer world of matter --like building a tower of babel.

(two interacting realms... evil thinking, evil actions)

whether or not the above is literally true it does serve to sort things out in my mind.

so, lucifer and satan are not different names for the same thingie. one is a volunteer doing a nasty job -- an unpleasant task that rails against its true nature, the other, a principle operating beyond its design perimeter that results in quite troublesom conditions anthromorphised into a supposed entity, dubbed 'satan' ...a very nasty thought-form created by believers.:eek:

(this does not mean that there are not some very 'for reals' entities lurking around that don't love our brand of humankind one teeny bit)

of course i don't know all of the above for sure, but felt obliged to share it.
as usual, the usual desclaimer, what resonates, etc.

here's for the creation of bigger and better thought forms!

love, billybobbeezlebub:)

[sergejsh]

so the story goes. but it is still one creation. lucifer is just another product of source, of god. and there can be nothing outside of creation. so what is the fall? perhaps it is best understood vibrationally. from highest angel lucifer was "thrown down" from his high vibrational place to the very low vibrational density that is necessary for the formation of what we know as matter. perhaps this is what is represented by the fall.

but let's look at this from from another perspective. lucifer is the "bringer of light" and the "prince of darkness". hmmm, dude must be pretty conflicted. anyway, imagine this - that lucifer, as highest of the high, had only one possible aspiration, as does any child: to become their parent, or better. lucifer only had god to emulate, yet one cannot be god of a creation that already has a god. so lucifer created a level of reality wherein the illusion of separation is taken as reality, thus to have a creational universe of his own.
that's interesting explanation. sounds logical.



satan is something else again.

satan and saturn sound similar. is there connection?

[johnasmodeus]

umm.. i find the characterization of demons as "astral trash" troubling. in a universe where all is the self, how can one regard anything, especially a conscious entity, as "trash"?

trash is something that is useless, correct? but demons and such serve a purpose to the creator, else they would not exist.

second, god doesn't "ascend" anybody - you must choose to put the effort in to do it yourself. so the answer to why he doesn't ascend demons is elementary - because he doesn't do it for the "saints" either. if god just ascended everybody against their wills, it'd be like using a big cosmic cheat code. maybe you'd do it once, just to see if it worked, but then you'd probably go back and play through the game again the hard way anyway.

[Nina]

dear billybrightbrave,
huge hug to you for extending yourself in this quest for furthur study! i'm a very soft-spoken parrot of steiner (thank you rhonda for your kind words of encouragement given elsewhere). the material is so complex, frequently i remain silent since still under study here about these figures represented to us as devil and lucifer. will be communicating more asap.
meanwhile, anyone who wants can search below and find multiple inroads to this challenging topic. nina
http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com

or from this reveiw of smith's "david's question:what is man?"
http://www.doyletics.com/arj/wimrvw.htm
"when lucifer (whose name means "light bringer") approached the two innocents in the garden they made a decision based only on their astral body (their ego not being descended) to accept the premature knowledge offered by lucifer. we know it was premature because they were told not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. the two innocents, adam and eve, received this knowledge but along with it came "pain, toil, and death, the divine cures for the astral, etheric and physical bodies, respectively (gen3,16-19)." they were innocent because their decision to follow lucifer's advice was an animalistic one, made by their astral body, over which their ego had as yet no control.
lucifer is the fallen archangel known as the devil esoterically, and ahriman the fallen archai known as satan. these two are not properly distinguished in current translations of the bible."

[Nina]

dear billybrightbrave and everyone,

this is an excerpt from "faith, hope and love as a counterforce to evil" by adriana koulias. she does an outstanding job bringing the complex
down to a level of easier comprehensibility. would encourage slowly reading the entire article if you seriously want to grasp the relevance and consider the ra material as well.(evolutionary stages of earth's planetary development are what is meant below re- old saturn, old sun,etc).if i could only select one short piece to share, this would be it! nina
http://anthroposophy.org.au

"she wrote: "while humanity was passing through the condition of mineral, plant and animal other beings were undergoing their own evolution and their own ‘human’ stage. on ‘old saturn’ beings three stages higher than man - the archai - were passing through their ‘human’ stage. on the ‘old sun’ those beings two stages higher than man from the rank of beings known as archangels were undergoing their human stage and on the ‘old moon’, rudolf steiner tells us that angels, only one stage higher than man, were undergoing their ‘human’ stage.

old saturn – archai – human stage
old sun – archangels – human stage
old moon – angels – human stage
earth – man – human stage

this evolution however was only true for those beings that were able to reach the goal set before them. those who fell short or could not rise to the task were left behind and had to make up for what they could not achieve ‘normally’ in their own time, at a future aeon. these beings suffer a great deal when they try to continue their evolution at a time when conditions are not suited to them as this means they have to work within incredible restrictions. the only way for these beings to alleviate their suffering is to step out of bounds, to overstep the boundaries[5] created by their retardation. this ‘overstepping’ can be seen as a hindrance to human beings for it occurs in the realm where humans are now developing their egos on earth. this hindrance is what rudolf steiner refers to as ‘evil’."

...further along, she continues - given here to indicate scope:
"the three streams of evil in the human being
the human being is not so insular as he may imagine. in every breath, in every perception, in every intake of food, in every sensation, thought and act of will human beings are accompanied by beings of a spiritual nature[12]. we have seen how luciferic and ahrimanic beings have entered into the human soul during evolution, and it is a fact that they live side by side with elemental beings (detachments of higher beings) and higher beings that regulate our physical, etheric and astral bodies."

[Enkidu]

negative entities can evolve based on a service to self path. service to others (positivity) is not the only method of forward movement.

the service to others path, though more difficult in these material planes, is a better model in higher realms as service to self only leads to squabbling.

while service to others entities work together to progress forwards on the path of soul evolution as a cohesive group. service to self entities get stuck around 4d with a few powerful entities making it to 5d only to be locked in an eternal power struggle.... that is my understanding of the subject

continue spiraling ever upwards,
austin

[Nina]

dear billy, austin and all,

robert mason has a list of offerings on different glimpses of our current world. please see his list:(not possible to select the best, but elected this one)...
"the "emergence" of "maitreya
"the foregoing discussion can help us understand a presently unfolding event: the "emergence" of the so-called "maitreya", now being promoted by benjamin creme and others. allegedly this "maitreya" is not only the christ but also the messiah, krishna, and the imam mahdi. the story goes like this:

in 1977 "maitreya" left his "ancient retreat in the himalayas" to reside incognito in london. allegedly he has created his own physical body -- a "mayavirupa" -- which can appear in many places at once, according to his intention. nevertheless, he supposedly rode an airliner from pakistan to london, "coming in the clouds". he also appears in dreams to many people around the world. the "maitreya" is a highly advanced man, not a god. he has been working behind the scenes to inspire many recent events, such as the "environmental" movement, the end of communism in the soviet union, the end of apartheid in south africa, and the end of the east-west confrontation. since 1988 he has "miraculously" appeared to speak before religious groups worldwide, causing miraculous healings and "charging" water with healing power. other miraculous phenomena around the world are said to emanate from him: marian appearances and weeping madonna statues, "crop circles", holographic "crosses of light", and mysterious hitchhikers who announce the return of christ and then vanish. these phenomena are leading to a fast-approaching "day of declaration" when "maitreya" will announce his "true identity" over world-wide radio and television, and listeners (and even those not listening) will hear him telepathically in their own languages -- and, simultaneously, spontaneous healings will occur around the world. thereafter, "masters" (advanced initiates who have reached the stage that they no longer need to incarnate, but return to earth voluntarily) of "maitreya's" "vanguard" will reveal themselves to support his efforts. one of these "masters" will be the "jesus" whom the supposed christ-maitreya "overshadowed" from the baptism to the crucifixion. -- the social teachings of "maitreya" oppose unfettered market forces and support the easing of the vast disparity between the rich and the poor by "the principle of sharing". governments will be forced to institute sharing after the coming collapse of the stock markets (beginning in japan) and the resulting upheavals. under the leading of "maitreya" and the "masters" a new world-wide civilization will emerge, based on the principles of: lessened regulation, liberty, freedom, environmental equilibrium, solar energy -- and the guarantee to all of enough food, clothing, housing, health care, and education.

"what's wrong with all that? " -- it is true enough that runaway "market forces", aided by their agents in government, are grievously oppressing mankind; the gap between rich and poor is cruel and dangerous; the natural environment is being degraded; and so on and on. we can begin to see "what's wrong" when we consider, as explained above, that christ appears once and only once in the flesh, and that his second coming is now taking place in the supra-physical, ethereal earth. clearly this is inconsistent with the supposed christ-maitreya coming down from the himalayas to live in london and appear around the world to the physical senses. furthermore, the "maitreya's" supporters teach that the "anti-christ energy" will not be manifested through individuals on earth, until 3000 years will have passed since the defeat of hitler. again, this is the reverse of the truth, as explained above: this is the time of climaxing activity of the antichrist, through ahrimanic influence, leading to the physical incarnation of ahriman. evidently, this supposed maitreya-christ is an impostor who tries to falsify the tremendous events breaking upon us.

we get a strong clue to the true nature of the "maitreya" from this statement of his supporters: "for the last 100 years, the ageless wisdom teachings have been released through individuals such as helena blavatsky, founder of the theosophical society, and later by alice a. bailey and helena roerich. in 1948, the imminent return of christ was revealed in alice bailey's book, the reappearance of the christ." [emergence quarterly, no. 9]

steiner and, following his researches, sergei o. prokofieff (grandson of the composer) have uncovered the occult influences behind blavatsky, bailey, and roerich. this story, much abridged, goes as follows: around 1875 blavatsky gave voice to some true western (rosicrucian) wisdom, much garbled, in her isis unveiled. she later came under the influence of a particular group of eastern, tibeto-indian occultists, who inspired her secret doctrine, with its strongly anti-christian bent. these inspirers were the "mahatmas", the supposed "morya" and "kut humi". (the true identity of these "mahatmas" is problematic.) under her influence, and that of a. p. sinnet (whose esoteric buddhism was inspired by the same "mahatmas"), the theosophical society took a decidedly eastern turn, even moving its headquarters from new york to madras. the teachings of the "mahatmas" derived from a pre-christian occult wisdom and held lucifer higher than christ, but also had a strongly materialistic and atheistic tinge." continued
http://www.anthroposophy.org/alinks/out_frame.php?id=216

in an earlier post in this forum, link shared to wk of walter semkiw. his info shares about maitreya. my earlier view is now better educated and, for me, the topic requires more research. nina