The Mayans and the origins of negative sacrifice?

[AmelieJolie]

Were the creators of the Mayan Calendar those who practiced the rituals of blood letting (and even worse, sacrifice), or did that come afterwards?

The thought came into my head after someone sent this to me:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_MbwLtI9uBo


IMO, these theological ideas they have suggest separateness........

[billybobbutterball]

Dear AJ

That Mayan sacrifice URL you posted is not for sissies! Made me nervous!

I don't know what is the actual connection between the Mayan calendar and the Mayan's voluminous sacrificial blood-lettings, pain and death stuff. I would suspect there was a significant amount of theological degeneration taking place over many years .:( The calendar may be aloof from all that gore when limiting it to its astrological functionality.

I've read somewhere that the act of death causes a temporary rift or disturbance in the fabric of space/time. If sensitive psychics were aware of such they might be tempted to utilize the death/pain phenomenon by hitching a ride -- so to speak -- to experience a different density, or level of astral 3D. (It is not likely they would be visiting a pleasant, heavenly neighborhood of the Cosmos! I would guess they would tap into a negative Hellraiser experience) If they found such experiences helpful, then it would be a logical step to manipulate society in ways to enable a more regulated and voluminous death rate.:rolleyes:

That particular Mayan time of lauding enduring pain, the indulging in self-mortification, the seeming heartless sacricing of others (animals and humans ) seems to reek of negative polarity. Actually, it would be a great training evironment for magnifying STS power. ( Highly recommended, with a 5 star rating from no less an authority than Genkis Kahn.)

stumbling over my words but trying to be helpful, billyblubbering

[Gort]

I am trying to think of something smart to say here and hope I succeed.
3500 years ago was a long time. I think it is hard for us in present day to understand the thought process that was behind this. I have read a little about the Maya and while they were great mathematicians, I still to this day revel at the concept that they were able to create such an elaborate system of calendars. The opposite end of the spectrum to us, as what we call civilized seems to bring horror to our mind when we think that human sacrifice was a common thing to them. One of the most over looked things about them is that they had the population of Los Angeles today, back then. Who really knows, this may have been their way of population control in a dramatized way.

I try to put myself back in time and wonder what it would have been like to be there. It is hard, because the evolution of consciousness has evolved us to a point that we can't understand the purpose of doing it. So now I look to the future 3500 years and wonder how barbaric they will consider us. We are changing how we evolve everyday, and I am trying to be one who wants to become more evolved. I am positive that time is happening right as we speak.

[AmelieJolie]

I think you're right, billybob.

I didn't like the URL either- had to look away!
I'm extremely squeemish. :rolleyes:

That's why I could never work in the medical profession!

[AmelieJolie]

It says here on this link to an Edgar Cayce reading, that the early Mayans according to this were not the ones who practiced all that gorry stuff; that came along later with the "Mosaic" culture. (Who are they?)

http://www.edgarcayce.org/am/mayayucatanmyste.html

[Nina]

All I can share is Mayan post moderator shared on Steiner list I was on. It was a REAL LOOK behind the scenes - NINA
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/steiner/message/3992

I can tell you what I know about the Maya, to start you off. In the last
days of ancient Atlantis, there was one group that had a lot of the old
Atlantean science handed down to them, but also had degenerated to human
sacriifice (remember the Biblical account that men had become so evil the
Divine decided to wipe them out? Plato said much the same about late
Atlantis). They migrated to the Yucatan penninsula before the final
destruction of Atlantis, and thus brought their mixed heritage from Atlantis
with them: the mathematics and astronomy, but also the terrible degenerated
religion. You can find a lot about their origin in the Cayce Readings, and
about what the Atlantis they came from was like in Phylos the Thibetan's "A
Dweller on Two Planets". Dr. Steiner spoke about the Maya in his lectures on
the "Mexican Mysteries" many times, for instance in this one which may be
found at the Steiner E-Library:
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19160924p01.html

I originally thought that the Maya culture must have been originally a
high one and so the violence and unspeakable cruelty that made the Spanish
decide to destroy it only came later: but I then found from archaeological
study that the same high knowledge that enabled them to build observatories
such as Chichen Itza existed hand-in-hand from the start with the terrible
bloody, inhuman culture---- as startling as that seems to us where we
automatically associate degeneracy with LACK of knowledge. It's like the
backward Islamic culture that wants to destroy everything since the 9th
century or so, while having within it so much old wisdom: because it was
inherited from the cultures they destroyed, like Egypt, not generated out of
the conquering cuture. In the same way, old Atlantean knowledge was broughtto the Americas by people who had already degenerated into human sacrificebefore they even came there. A strange mix, indeed....Starman

[SuperManny]

Hi BBB! Good to see you're still around! I agree with you, the bloodthirstiness of the Mayans has always puzzled me too. There are many stories of how the winners in their ball games were sacrificed to the gods, and how in many of their sacrifices they would cut the heart out of a living person and offer the still-beating heart as a sacrifice!:eek: That's just creepy!

Some historians actually believe that the Mayans were on the negative path, and I guess that would explain some of that. It's really hard to tell because so much of their culture was destroyed when they were conquered. They were told that all their symbolism and their codices were of the devil and must be destroyed. Altho some conspiracy theorists insist that a lot of it was saved and is still being held by the Vatican. *Sigh!* We'll probably never know....

[Jacob]

Hi Folks,

I am aware there were several 'periods' of the Mayan's culture; for instance Pre-Classic, Classic and Post-Classic.

If I remember correctly their most substantial contributions (art/architecture/calendar systems) reached their maturity during the Classic period.
We are talking about a civilization that spanned several thousands of years. As such it is important to remember that paradigms shift as generations pass; we can see that throughout history. Wars are fought in the name of distorted beliefs.
It's quite feasible that as the Mayan civilization progressed, generations would have misinterpreted their ancestors' wisdom and 'misused' it for rituals such as those that have been discussed here. All words are open to interpretation; Jesus' parables are most likely intended to be taken analogously yet many interpret them literally.

:D

As for astrology; here's a quote from Ian Xen Lungold's website regarding two of the Mayan's many calendars:

"The Tzolkin and Tun central Mayan calendars do not in any way pay attention to the relative position of any planets or stars. The Mayan calendar is and always was, acting as a meter of the flow, rate and intent of Creation itself. The Maya had 20 different planetary and stellar calendars running for over 3000 years in their quest to correlate how the greater pattern of creation filters down to us from the planets and stars to us here on the planet."

I've heard that the primary use the Mayans had for measuring planetary movements was for book-keeping! (planning their economics around the seasons and growth of their crops sounds sensible to me!).

Cheers

Jake

[charles obscure]

The original uses for the pyramids and temples in central and south America, was not for human sacrifice, but more for meditation.

Quetzcoatl was largely the creator of these civilizations, (or in Mayan Kukulkan). The 6th density entity of light learning and culture. According to their own legends was the founder of cities, the former of laws, the teacher of the calendar. This entity taught peace and that no living things were to be harmed.

Ra hints towards this in the LoO series when he mentions that when the 6th density entity returned to this plane (that was responsible for the original constructions) it observed the structures being used in innapropriate ways, thus was not able to offer much help at that time.

Later Mayans had significant scientific knowledge passed on to them, and may have used the temples for this use but it was not their original purpose. (Those temples constructed by positive entities).

[litllady]

I tend to relate blood sacrifices along with the different stages of experience that we grow with as well as learn from. I think our experiences, past, present and future all mirror the experience God went through and is still going through in order to manifest and create outside thee self. Our past civilizations experienced through the human self what it is like to sacrifice yourself or something that you love. In the beginnings of 'our' space time God had to sacrifice a part of himself to create. Im sure this was out of love and the want of love returned. God himself sacrificed a part of thee divinity of the light in order to love and be loved. Now, in the present time we are experiencing the thrill that comes after the sacrifice experience, its the thrill to create. Our imaginations are vast and our thoughts are learning new powers. This makes sense to me because so many different resources are saying that one day our thoughts will manifest-if they are not already doing so. My personal belief is that they are already doing so in things like the weather. Our thoughts, with the earths vibrations, with the galaxies vibrations, with the whole universes vibrations all work together to succeed in our experiences of God. Many say we are becoming co-creators. Very interesting. Im not saying blood sacrifice was right by any means, but possibly a necessity for the human species back then in their path of learning how to offer their love back to God. Our history of learning and experiencing is so amazing to me. It could of been simply a trial and error kind of thing. Mabey the negative vibe that the blood sacrifices contained effected their lives more then we will ever know.

[billybobbutterball]

Hi, guys/gals

Hard to keep up with the flurry of posts concerning the Mayan mystery!

I mentioned in an earlier posting that I recalled reading something about the death of a creature can momentarily pry open the fabric of space/time.

Turns out I picked up that idea via David from his fabulous four-part Project Camelot video series. Last night I "accidentally" ran across the topic and quickly copied part of it, then scurried back here to paste it.



### David Wilcock on video/transcript


...So the Illuminati are the inheritors of this Atlantean science, which was then distorted, according to the Law of One series, thousands and thousands of years ago; seven, eight, nine thousand years ago, these negative energies got involved and changed the teaching and put it into a more negative direction.

That's where you get into the sacrifices and all these things that the Mayans ended up doing, the secret orders end up doing these things. Sacrifice is one way to open up the shift between space/time and time/space.

In the death process, you pop a hole through the veil temporarily. It's a conscious energy, so in a ritual, people can focus that energy and use it for something, including creating this opening; especially if you are at a natural star gate kind of thing. So there are technological means to do this also.



Now I am not a supporter of animal sacrifice, or any other type of sacrifice, I think it's something you will end up paying for karmically. That's the thing that's really crazy about the secret orders. It's not that I dislike them as people. I have known a lot of people that are in these groups. Its more that they have a fundamental misunderstanding of how consciousness really functions, which is a loving creation that we live in.

SNIP

So, put your thinking cap on! What did we just learn about DNA?

DNA is something that is modified by an outside energy. You can take a salamander embryo, zap it, re-direct into a frog embryo, the frog transforms. So the universe, even if you have a small population, you can still rejuvenate your DNA by consciousness.



SNIP

END



Somewhere I (BBB) picked up the idea that the "Mayans" can be traced back geographically to India. They were intruders and ran into trouble with the indigenous peoples, which led to their migration to Ceylon. Some undetermined time later they shipped out and ended up stuck on Central America. I would imagine they had a social foundation in place ages before they opened up a new chapter of life in Yucatan. I like to think that their knowledge of the heavenlies goes back to earlier,happier times.



I also suppose they had a population problem -- plus solutions to it, i.e., the Aztecs supposedly waged pre-arranged war/battles between various states for the specifically simple purpose of reducing the numbers of "eaters", on both sides, down to a more manageable level .:eek:



When considering all the attendant horrors perpetrated in life it is indeed hard to keep in mind that "All is Love" and that even the worst acts imaginable are essentially motivated by distorted "love" (the word "Love" is a default term for a universal property that lacks a word that fully describes it. Some aspects of the term "love" at least gives some a hint of the underlying nature of the spiritual glue holding the cosmos together)

...and thank you, Supermanny, for welcoming me back to the D.C. discussion group ( What happened was that my computer had a near death experience -- that dragged on for months )

My very best! billybobbutterball

[Nina]

Dear Charles,
In my earlier post, reference was made to Steiner lecture about the Mexican Mysteries but I shared no excerpt from it. Quetzacoatl is mentioned as well as some of the others on the negative side. Short reference here only - see earlier link if interested. NINA
Now these initiations had a definite purpose. As has been said, the initiate acquired actual powers of black magic...
Many opposing sects were founded with the object of countering this devilish cult. One such sect was that of Tezcatlipoca. He too was a being who did not appear in a physical body but who was known to many of the Mexican initiates, in spite of the fact that he lived only in an etheric body. Tezcatlipoca was a being akin to Jahve or Jehovah. The aim of his cult, working in opposition to those of Taotl, was to establish a Jahve religion suited to the terrible conditions prevailing in Mexico. Tezcatlipoca was a spirit akin to Jahve.
Another sect venerated Quetzalcoatl. He, too, was a being who lived only in an etheric body. Quetzalcoatl was a being of whom we may say that he was connected with the Mercury forces. He was connected with medical art of a certain character. Such beings are always described by those who can perceive them through clairvoyance in such a way that the description conveys the impression of the actual reality. When Quetzalcoatl is described as a figure with a serpent-like body, as a green feathered serpent, this indicates to those who understand such matters that he was an actual being, but one who appears only in an etheric body. This cult continued through many millennia.

[AmelieJolie]

Hi, guys/gals

Hard to keep up with the flurry of posts concerning the Mayan mystery!

I mentioned in an earlier posting that I recalled reading something about the death of a creature can momentarily pry open the fabric of space/time.

Turns out I picked up that idea via David from his fabulous four-part Project Camelot video series. Last night I "accidentally" ran across the topic and quickly copied part of it, then scurried back here to paste it.



### David Wilcock on video/transcript


...So the Illuminati are the inheritors of this Atlantean science, which was then distorted, according to the Law of One series, thousands and thousands of years ago; seven, eight, nine thousand years ago, these negative energies got involved and changed the teaching and put it into a more negative direction.

That's where you get into the sacrifices and all these things that the Mayans ended up doing, the secret orders end up doing these things. Sacrifice is one way to open up the shift between space/time and time/space.

In the death process, you pop a hole through the veil temporarily. It's a conscious energy, so in a ritual, people can focus that energy and use it for something, including creating this opening; especially if you are at a natural star gate kind of thing. So there are technological means to do this also.



Now I am not a supporter of animal sacrifice, or any other type of sacrifice, I think it's something you will end up paying for karmically. That's the thing that's really crazy about the secret orders. It's not that I dislike them as people. I have known a lot of people that are in these groups. Its more that they have a fundamental misunderstanding of how consciousness really functions, which is a loving creation that we live in.

SNIP

So, put your thinking cap on! What did we just learn about DNA?

DNA is something that is modified by an outside energy. You can take a salamander embryo, zap it, re-direct into a frog embryo, the frog transforms. So the universe, even if you have a small population, you can still rejuvenate your DNA by consciousness.

..........

When considering all the attendant horrors perpetrated in life it is indeed hard to keep in mind that "All is Love" and that even the worst acts imaginable are essentially motivated by distorted "love" (the word "Love" is a default term for a universal property that lacks a word that fully describes it. Some aspects of the term "love" at least gives some a hint of the underlying nature of the spiritual glue holding the cosmos together)


Well said, bbb!


No divine consciousness requires blood sacrifice for our evolution, it is all a LIE!!!

In fact, I feel that death itself is a distortion of the way things originally were.

If anyone is intent on practicing sacrifice, then let them do it to themselves- anything other than this stems from separatism, the source of all suffering in our world.


Peace out!

[AmelieJolie]

Personally, I've always felt that advocation for sacrifice is a horrific distortion from true spirituality..........
A person can choose to sacrifice themselves in the name of a worthy cause, etc, but they should NOT interfere with the will of another in any way.

I wish I had the power to make those who inflict pain on another understand the pain they cause. Like in this film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uz80zTMO40

If they could only see this, understand it- then they would comprehend the meaning of Oneness.

Treat others as you would have them treat you!

[billybobbutterball]

A.J. sums up:

No divine consciousness requires blood sacrifice for our evolution, it is all a LIE!!!

In fact, I feel that death itself is a distortion of the way things originally were.

If anyone is intent on practicing sacrifice, then let them do it to themselves- anything other than this stems from separatism, the source of all suffering in our world.


Peace out!

##

Hi. A.J., I can understand the wholesome sentiments you have expressed above, but I think it is only covers half the picture.

This is how I understand it:

The 3D Earth experience is not simply that of the positive path. "Souls" are here for a purpose going far beyond merely achieving a quick and speedy return to "oneness". We exist as the One Creator's agency of itself to explore the finite aspect of the infinite. Our job is to disclose all possibilities... and, as explorer’s hope to do, All will eventually come back "home" to present our painfully gathered individualistic gifts of experience to our source...the ever-learning, ever expanding, One Creator.

When will these happen? When the 6th D social memory complex, Ra was asked about their schedule of spiritual advancement the RA replied that they had strong leanings to the 7th density and should arrive there post haste. (According to our 3D-time scale The Ra’s advancement to the 7th would be in a measly couple of million years. Hmmm…Earth denizens -- even advanced wanderers -- have a ways to go yet!)

The conflict between apparent good and evil...the positive and negative elements of humanity that so confuse us, is actually the needed engine that drives our education. Galactic Logos in past experiment tried to fulfill their mandate by seeding and maintaining life in virtual Gardens of Eden. The results were a host of dismally bland, lukewarm failures in that the creatures -- living in comfort and steeped in the knowledge of the Law of One -- had no incentive to do anything. They were just lounging around instead of fulfilling the work description. Bummer!

New plan: Law of confusion …the ultimate frustration to us learners, the ubiquitous veil of forgetfulness.

To simplify a very complex situation one could say that Earth became a most radical experiment in that there was allowed a mixture of negative and positive elements to a degree not before tried.

As a former orthodox Christian I had a particular mindset; God was naturally a he and was in the Grecian mode of unchanging perfection. He created the universe ex-nihilo ...that is out of nothing-- no universal space playdough stuff, much less any substance or essence from himself.

The reason for the ex-nihilo doctrine escaped me until recently. If the finite universe is any part of God's substance then the evilness of the universe can traced directly back to this "perfect" god...and that is theologically unallowable; so to maintain the idea of separation the creation has to be "out of nothing"

In Christianity we are absolutely not a real part of god but literally creatures out of nothing. Our evil deeds are of ourselves and god is rightly infuriated that we are not obeying his rules and regulations. Out of his supposed grace and mercy he will arbitrarily rescue a select number but will allow the rest to an everlasting hell...because, logically, a sin (rebellion) against an infinite god is an infinite sin, thus calling for infinite punishment over infinite time. Somehow this doesn’t seem quite right…

In the Ra philosophy, All is One. The Cosmos is a part of god, and of course that includes ourselves -- "good" or "evil". The point is that everything that takes place has only one ground. God. Many would say this is the belief of Pantheism. But I think that idea a big mistake as it limits god to the apparent Cosmos. The seemingly similar but much superior idea of Panentheism kicks the concept upstairs by several magnitudes. The Cosmos is a distortion of the One Creator. God is the Cosmos but the Cosmos is not God. The key is that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, so to speak. Pantheism shrinks the idea of god, Panentheism expands immanence to include transcendence.

Back to E.J.’s understandable lament.

The greatest shock I got in reading the Ra study guide was the fact that evil is not sin. Evil doers and non-believers do not go directly to jailhouse/hell to roast there for ETERNITY. All of God's creation will be reconciled. None is lost.

A further shock was that evil, as negative polarity, serves a purpose in the tension it provides when set against positive polarity...much as a powerful alternating electric current. The biggest shock came with the unveiling that negative polarity is a legitimate spiritual path with as much spiritual right to be followed as the positive path (in Buddhism the negative way is referred to as the left hand path) (The earth is slightly prejudiced to the positive side) So, the negative path is the worshiping of god in oneself, while the positive sees god in other…

So, yes, the bloodletting and sacrifices are tools to advance those of negative polarity. Many would incarnate into such a situation -- even as "victims" -- to increase their ambition for a perceived need for greater negative polarity. Many negative’s incarnate to positions of power, wealth, physical beauty, etc. Other do the exact opposite...using ugliness, poverty, pains, to fuel the drive to accomplish their future ambitions and drive to personal power.

It further ticked me off when I found out that, although the negative 6th would run into the glass ceiling, they could --because of their tremendous personal powers -- switch polarity much easier than they could have done during earlier, lower levels of attainment. So, like the prodigal son they come home to a welcome…except they come back bearing rich gifts of experience rather then empty poverty.

So, the point I would make is that all is happening to "perfection" even if our current "personality shell" think otherwise. And death of our "meat suit" is not a distortion...even at higher levels bodies wear out and are exchanged for fresh expressions.


A channeled inquiry was made concerning extending lifetime. The response was that, although the physical body could be prolonged and kept in apparent health, the energy level of the individual would seriously decline.

Since billybobbutterball has advanced to an age where he has outlived his teeth and most usefulness he has adopted the observation of the noted sage, Woody Allen: "I'm not afraid of dying... I just don't want to be there when it happens."

billybattered

[charles obscure]

A.J. sums up:

No divine consciousness requires blood sacrifice for our evolution, it is all a LIE!!!

In fact, I feel that death itself is a distortion of the way things originally were.

If anyone is intent on practicing sacrifice, then let them do it to themselves- anything other than this stems from separatism, the source of all suffering in our world.


Peace out!

##

Hi. A.J., I can understand the wholesome sentiments you have expressed above, but I think it is only covers half the picture.

This is how I understand it:

The 3D Earth experience is not simply that of the positive path. "Souls" are here for a purpose going far beyond merely achieving a quick and speedy return to "oneness". We exist as the One Creator's agency of itself to explore the finite aspect of the infinite. Our job is to disclose all possibilities... and, as explorer’s hope to do, All will eventually come back "home" to present our painfully gathered individualistic gifts of experience to our source...the ever-learning, ever expanding, One Creator.

When will these happen? When the 6th D social memory complex, Ra was asked about their schedule of spiritual advancement the RA replied that they had strong leanings to the 7th density and should arrive there post haste. (According to our 3D-time scale The Ra’s advancement to the 7th would be in a measly couple of million years. Hmmm…Earth denizens -- even advanced wanderers -- have a ways to go yet!)

The conflict between apparent good and evil...the positive and negative elements of humanity that so confuse us, is actually the needed engine that drives our education. Galactic Logos in past experiment tried to fulfill their mandate by seeding and maintaining life in virtual Gardens of Eden. The results were a host of dismally bland, lukewarm failures in that the creatures -- living in comfort and steeped in the knowledge of the Law of One -- had no incentive to do anything. They were just lounging around instead of fulfilling the work description. Bummer!

New plan: Law of confusion …the ultimate frustration to us learners, the ubiquitous veil of forgetfulness.

To simplify a very complex situation one could say that Earth became a most radical experiment in that there was allowed a mixture of negative and positive elements to a degree not before tried.

As a former orthodox Christian I had a particular mindset; God was naturally a he and was in the Grecian mode of unchanging perfection. He created the universe ex-nihilo ...that is out of nothing-- no universal space playdough stuff, much less any substance or essence from himself.

The reason for the ex-nihilo doctrine escaped me until recently. If the finite universe is any part of God's substance then the evilness of the universe can traced directly back to this "perfect" god...and that is theologically unallowable; so to maintain the idea of separation the creation has to be "out of nothing"

In Christianity we are absolutely not a real part of god but literally creatures out of nothing. Our evil deeds are of ourselves and god is rightly infuriated that we are not obeying his rules and regulations. Out of his supposed grace and mercy he will arbitrarily rescue a select number but will allow the rest to an everlasting hell...because, logically, a sin (rebellion) against an infinite god is an infinite sin, thus calling for infinite punishment over infinite time. Somehow this doesn’t seem quite right…

In the Ra philosophy, All is One. The Cosmos is a part of god, and of course that includes ourselves -- "good" or "evil". The point is that everything that takes place has only one ground. God. Many would say this is the belief of Pantheism. But I think that idea a big mistake as it limits god to the apparent Cosmos. The seemingly similar but much superior idea of Panentheism kicks the concept upstairs by several magnitudes. The Cosmos is a distortion of the One Creator. God is the Cosmos but the Cosmos is not God. The key is that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, so to speak. Pantheism shrinks the idea of god, Panentheism expands immanence to include transcendence.

Back to E.J.’s understandable lament.

The greatest shock I got in reading the Ra study guide was the fact that evil is not sin. Evil doers and non-believers do not go directly to jailhouse/hell to roast there for ETERNITY. All of God's creation will be reconciled. None is lost.

A further shock was that evil, as negative polarity, serves a purpose in the tension it provides when set against positive polarity...much as a powerful alternating electric current. The biggest shock came with the unveiling that negative polarity is a legitimate spiritual path with as much spiritual right to be followed as the positive path (in Buddhism the negative way is referred to as the left hand path) (The earth is slightly prejudiced to the positive side) So, the negative path is the worshiping of god in oneself, while the positive sees god in other…

So, yes, the bloodletting and sacrifices are tools to advance those of negative polarity. Many would incarnate into such a situation -- even as "victims" -- to increase their ambition for a perceived need for greater negative polarity. Many negative’s incarnate to positions of power, wealth, physical beauty, etc. Other do the exact opposite...using ugliness, poverty, pains, to fuel the drive to accomplish their future ambitions and drive to personal power.

It further ticked me off when I found out that, although the negative 6th would run into the glass ceiling, they could --because of their tremendous personal powers -- switch polarity much easier than they could have done during earlier, lower levels of attainment. So, like the prodigal son they come home to a welcome…except they come back bearing rich gifts of experience rather then empty poverty.

So, the point I would make is that all is happening to "perfection" even if our current "personality shell" think otherwise. And death of our "meat suit" is not a distortion...even at higher levels bodies wear out and are exchanged for fresh expressions.


A channeled inquiry was made concerning extending lifetime. The response was that, although the physical body could be prolonged and kept in apparent health, the energy level of the individual would seriously decline.

Since billybobbutterball has advanced to an age where he has outlived his teeth and most usefulness he has adopted the observation of the noted sage, Woody Allen: "I'm not afraid of dying... I just don't want to be there when it happens."

billybattered

You should also keep in mind, and acknowledge that you dont have a true understanding of what transpires in the higher densities, and what the negative path really means for those who choose it. Ra has mentioned an eternal disharmony and that the positive path is more efficient, coupled with the fact that our logos has a bias towards positive...there are a lot of hints, yet neither of us really know. All I would say is refrain from assumption and refrain from judgement.

You seem to be going around and around with your rationalized thought process. That is easy to do, but will generally cause you to see things from a negative (false) perspective.

Just my 2 cents.

[onething]

Hmmm...I made a post to this topic last night and it seems to not be here. This hasn't happened before...I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything offensive, or if I did, I'd like to know what it was.

[billybobbutterball]

Charles Obscure takes exception to Billybobs philosophizing

CO says:

You should also keep in mind, and acknowledge that you dont have a true understanding of what transpires in the higher densities, and what the negative path really means for those who choose it. Ra has mentioned an eternal disharmony and that the positive path is more efficient, coupled with the fact that our logos has a bias towards positive...there are a lot of hints, yet neither of us really know. All I would say is refrain from assumption and refrain from judgement.

You seem to be going around and around with your rationalized thought process. That is easy to do, but will generally cause you to see things from a negative (false) perspective.

Just my 2 cents.

##

Hi, Charles

billybob here. (Sorry that I don't have a good handle on how to manipulate posting, so I’m stuck with this amateurish. format

To address your comments: it is true that I have but little understanding of what goes on in the higher densities, but on the other hand it is also true that I've absorbed a lot of the Law of One; along with reams of wonderful material available from the vast archives of LLResearch; all that exposure has guided my sense of the subject. I might point out that no less than The Ra state that they only have a limited grasp of the 7th density, and that in the face of being in contact and taught from that level. And as for the 8th the Ra states that it is still a virtual mystery.

And, Charles, what do you imply here when you address my condition of... "and (you not understand ) what the negative path means for those who choose it...? Charles, I'm confused. Do your think I'm recommending it?:confused:

The negative path is one of great difficulties, and one that I personally don't want any part of. The point I was trying to make is that it is -- up to a certain point in 6th density -- a valid spiritual path. Carla (the channeler of the RA Material ) was under a serious attack by a powerful 5th density negative entity. He/her was attempting to highjack her soul and place it in a negative density. (That would be really bad news!) Latwii (a student of the Ra) could not directly interfere in order to block the attack (she calls such 'negative greetings') BECAUSE THIS negative ENTITY HAD AN ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL RIGHT to do what he was attempting to do! Latwii, being of 5th density could help, but only in a tangential manner. When I first read about this I was stunned. It didn't seem right. But that is the way it is for reals.

It is said of those originally negative who do manage to get to 8th density is that they bring a particularly wealthy gift of experiential knowledge to the One Creator. Believe it or not, they are 'judged' to have served well. As I said, concerning the Ra philosophy of religion, all is reconciled.

So, the left hand path -- worshiping God within oneself -- demands a tremendous work of self control. Through discipline these rare personages become very powerful, magically enhanced entities. There is no argument about that! Do I want to go to take that thorny torture path? :eek:

The disharmony you mention -- is that a bad thing? It has been pointed out that such is the designed PURPOSE in establishing the negative vs positive polarity. Is there confusion over this? I thought I made that point clear in my essay...?

A.J. was understandingly bewailing the existence of pain and suffering in life and stressed how useless it all seems to be. I was trying to help by showing it in a different light. Do I want to be sacrificed? NO!!! Do I want to control and hurt living things? NO!! Do I have a hard time loving those who do such? Yes. Am I supposed to love them? You betcha. ( But I ain't a saint yet...)

I mentioned -- as you pointed out -- that our local system is biased towards the positive polarity. True. However, there are planets where the opposite obtains. As I also pointed out our planet received an unusually heavy mixture of negative and positive polarity, and that condition has caused more disturbance and turmoil than originally desired.

Okay...you suggest I refrain from assumption and judgement. But look, this Divine Cosmos site is dedicated to discussing the works of David Wilcock and the "Ra Material"...and that includes all sorts of interesting material that does lead inexorably to a certain amount of associated assumption, speculation and even somewhat stretchy speculations. Since I have a particular interest in philosophy and theology those Points of view will influence my posts.

Look, I don’t have all the answers, and I admit that I'm a Bozo. I'm not very graceful and more often than not I end up with my foot in mouth. But l keep trying.

Now the observation that really hurts:

##

Charles says: (billy) You seem to be going around and around with your rationalized thought process. That is easy to do, but will generally cause you to see things from a negative (false) perspective.

##

Now CO what does that mean? Did I really go round and round? I was trying to go from B to S in logical order. And the end result? I thought I was seeing things from a positive viewpoint even though the subject at hand happened to be negative polarity. I will have to think about this. Maybe writing lessons…


Dear Charles, thank you for the Critique, if ever we meet I will....hmm.. ahhh...I'll have to pray about that! :)

billious g

[AmelieJolie]

"Once Parshwanath, a young prince, arriving as a bridegroom with his marriage entourage to the house of his bride, saw near the house an enclosure of animals, tightly packed, waiting to be slaughtered. Shocked by the cry of the animals, the prince enquired, "Why are those animals being kept in such cruel conditions?" His aides replied, "They are for the feast of the wedding party."

The young prince was overwhelmed with compassion. Arriving at the wedding chamber, he spoke with the father of the princess. "Immediately and unconditionally all those animals enclosed to be slaughtered for the marriage feast must be freed," he said. "Why?" responded the father. "The lives of animals are there for the pleasure of humans. Animals are our slaves and our meat. How can there be any feast without the flesh?!"

Prince Parshwanath was puzzled. He could not believe what he had just heard. He exclaimed, "Animals have souls, they have consciousness, they are our kith and kin, they are our ancestors. They wish to live as much as we do; they have feelings and emotions. They have love and passion; they fear death as much as we do. Their instinct for life is no less than ours. Their right to live is as fundamental as our own. I cannot marry, I cannot love and I cannot enjoy life if animals are enslaved and killed." Without further ado he rejected the plans for his marriage, he discarded the comfortable life of a prince, and he responded to his inner calling to go out and awaken the sleepy masses who had been conditioned to think selfishly and kill animals for their pleasure and comfort.

According to the story, the animal kingdom welcomes Parshwanath as the prophet of the weak and the wild. They gather around him when he calls for kindness. The birds sit upon the tree nearby; fishes come to the corner of the lake where Parshwanath is seated. Elephants, lions, foxes, rabbits, rats, insects, and ants pay homage to him. One day, finding Parshwanath being soaked by the heavy rain of the monsoon, the king of the cobras stood on his tail and created an umbrella with his huge head.

Thousands upon thousands of people in villages, towns and cities are moved by the teachings of Parshwanath. They renounce meat and take up the work of animal welfare. The princess whom Parshwanath was going to marry was so inspired that she decided to remain unmarried and dedicate herself to the care of animals. Having lost a daughter and would-be son-in-law to the cause of animal compassion, the King himself underwent anguish and yet experienced transformation. He announced that all animals were to be respected in his kingdom, and that there would be no hunting, no shooting, no caging and no pets.

There are twenty-four Great Liberators in the Jain Lineage. Adinath was the first. Parshwanath was the twenty-third. Such Liberators are called tirthankaras. The twenty-fourth was Mahavir who lived 2,600 years ago. He revived the Jain religion as it is practiced today. All the twenty-four Great Liberators have an animal associated with them, symbolizing that in Jain teachings the place of animals is central. Love is not love if it does not include love of animals, according to Jain teachings. What kind of compassion is it which adores and reveres human life, but ignores the slaughter of animals?

Division between humans and animals and putting human interests before animal interests is the beginning of sectionalism, racism, nationalism, class and caste discrimination, and of course speciesism. The same mindset, which enslaves animals, goes on to enslave humans in the name of self-interest, national interest, and umpteen other narrow interests.
Therefore we, the Jains, advocate an unconditional and unequivocal reverence for all life".

[AmelieJolie]

BBB, with all do respect, I think I might have a slightly different perspective of the Bible to some people here.

Refer to the Sumerian tablets, oldest known piece of literature in the world.

[AmelieJolie]

I feel that the only real evil is ignorance itself, therefore it is possible that any being can awaken and "switch polarities".

However, does this mean that harming others may serve a useful purpose?

No; we are only harming ourselves.

Also, I think the human race has been manipulated.
I've just been reading The Law Of One material a bit and have found that it agrees on this (on genetics being altered), though it says there were both positive as well as negative influences.

Do not mistake the word "God" used in religious scripture as meaning the "Infinite Creator".

It was a translation from a word which originally meant "those who came from the sky".

Sacrifice was and always has been a dark practice first introduced by these negative beings and manipulators.


What kind of all-loving, infinitely compassionate being
asks someone to take a beautiful creature,
force it down
and slice it open?


It doesn't feel right.

I know it doesn't.

[charles obscure]

Charles Obscure takes exception to Billybobs philosophizing

CO says:

You should also keep in mind, and acknowledge that you dont have a true understanding of what transpires in the higher densities, and what the negative path really means for those who choose it. Ra has mentioned an eternal disharmony and that the positive path is more efficient, coupled with the fact that our logos has a bias towards positive...there are a lot of hints, yet neither of us really know. All I would say is refrain from assumption and refrain from judgement.

You seem to be going around and around with your rationalized thought process. That is easy to do, but will generally cause you to see things from a negative (false) perspective.

Just my 2 cents.

##

Hi, Charles

billybob here. (Sorry that I don't have a good handle on how to manipulate posting, so I’m stuck with this amateurish. format

To address your comments: it is true that I have but little understanding of what goes on in the higher densities, but on the other hand it is also true that I've absorbed a lot of the Law of One; along with reams of wonderful material available from the vast archives of LLResearch; all that exposure has guided my sense of the subject. I might point out that no less than The Ra state that they only have a limited grasp of the 7th density, and that in the face of being in contact and taught from that level. And as for the 8th the Ra states that it is still a virtual mystery.

And, Charles, what do you imply here when you address my condition of... "and (you not understand ) what the negative path means for those who choose it...? Charles, I'm confused. Do your think I'm recommending it?:confused:

The negative path is one of great difficulties, and one that I personally don't want any part of. The point I was trying to make is that it is -- up to a certain point in 6th density -- a valid spiritual path. Carla (the channeler of the RA Material ) was under a serious attack by a powerful 5th density negative entity. He/her was attempting to highjack her soul and place it in a negative density. (That would be really bad news!) Latwii (a student of the Ra) could not directly interfere in order to block the attack (she calls such 'negative greetings') BECAUSE THIS negative ENTITY HAD AN ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL RIGHT to do what he was attempting to do! Latwii, being of 5th density could help, but only in a tangential manner. When I first read about this I was stunned. It didn't seem right. But that is the way it is for reals.

It is said of those originally negative who do manage to get to 8th density is that they bring a particularly wealthy gift of experiential knowledge to the One Creator. Believe it or not, they are 'judged' to have served well. As I said, concerning the Ra philosophy of religion, all is reconciled.

So, the left hand path -- worshiping God within oneself -- demands a tremendous work of self control. Through discipline these rare personages become very powerful, magically enhanced entities. There is no argument about that! Do I want to go to take that thorny torture path? :eek:

The disharmony you mention -- is that a bad thing? It has been pointed out that such is the designed PURPOSE in establishing the negative vs positive polarity. Is there confusion over this? I thought I made that point clear in my essay...?

A.J. was understandingly bewailing the existence of pain and suffering in life and stressed how useless it all seems to be. I was trying to help by showing it in a different light. Do I want to be sacrificed? NO!!! Do I want to control and hurt living things? NO!! Do I have a hard time loving those who do such? Yes. Am I supposed to love them? You betcha. ( But I ain't a saint yet...)

I mentioned -- as you pointed out -- that our local system is biased towards the positive polarity. True. However, there are planets where the opposite obtains. As I also pointed out our planet received an unusually heavy mixture of negative and positive polarity, and that condition has caused more disturbance and turmoil than originally desired.

Okay...you suggest I refrain from assumption and judgement. But look, this Divine Cosmos site is dedicated to discussing the works of David Wilcock and the "Ra Material"...and that includes all sorts of interesting material that does lead inexorably to a certain amount of associated assumption, speculation and even somewhat stretchy speculations. Since I have a particular interest in philosophy and theology those Points of view will influence my posts.

Look, I don’t have all the answers, and I admit that I'm a Bozo. I'm not very graceful and more often than not I end up with my foot in mouth. But l keep trying.

Now the observation that really hurts:

##

Charles says: (billy) You seem to be going around and around with your rationalized thought process. That is easy to do, but will generally cause you to see things from a negative (false) perspective.

##

Now CO what does that mean? Did I really go round and round? I was trying to go from B to S in logical order. And the end result? I thought I was seeing things from a positive viewpoint even though the subject at hand happened to be negative polarity. I will have to think about this. Maybe writing lessons…


Dear Charles, thank you for the Critique, if ever we meet I will....hmm.. ahhh...I'll have to pray about that! :)

billious g


Well, there is a lot here for me to respond to, but to try to be be straight forward I definetely dont think you were advocating the negative path, or coming across as a bozo in the least. I saw an intelligent post, by an individual who perhaps felt a little confused and angered by their own thoughts and/or perceptions of what they've learned.

I think what I was trying to respond to is your seeming frustration that the negative path is indeed a valid spiritual one.

What I was trying to get across is the system is perfect I think regardless of whether you see that. Those who harm others for spiritual enlightenment are actually harming themselves. I believe they have a longer path back to the one full of hollowness and pain (and probably have to re-experience 3rd density after attaining 6th -- as wanderers in service to others suffering the same types of hard ships they presented to others, though this is more or less a guess). It is hard work, however there can be a lot of good things too tied in with that, and they in fact are performing a service for us.

I certainly dont have all the answers but to try and articulate my understanding somewhat in a small amount of time here I think if you notice that what we can term 'love' is actually a synthesis that occurs between the interplay of positive and negative forces. Without the evil, love is more or less very weak. I often look at those who I percieve as very self serving as fools, yet completely necessary fools (ironically they probably percieve us StO's the same way). The strength of my love I feel is in fact is very much dependent on these entities.

A lot of the things you posted coincide with the stuff Im saying. You've done your homework which is great. I was more responding to what I percieved as anger/frustration on your part. The literal information can only take one so far towards truth. When you are able to find that understanding of these concepts - the oneness within, the feelings of resentment etc. will be largely reconciled. But patience -- this is no small feat!

[onething]

I wish RA had said more about the negative path, on the different densities, so that I could better try to understand how things work.

[litllady]

I think that what Billybob was trying to say in a nut shell is that this time of negativity was still a necessary even though we dont understand how it could be. All in all, everything that happens is necessary for growth in our experience for Gods experience of the cause and effect of separation. I dont think the separation happened with Adam and Eve, I dont think it happened when the angles fell...for some reason I think it has been there ever since the manifestation of God to create from theeself. We will keep experiencing this separation untill the positive polarity overcomes the negative in this war of duality. None of us here think it was right to sacrifice blood, but should we not try to see even the most negative of things provide a lesson for someone in their growth to the positive? Mabey it was a lesson for the Mayans, mabey its a lesson to us, mabey its both. I think the Mayans history shows for whatever reasons that they had great fear. Im understanding alot about fear here lately, it can be a very ugly thing. When in fear, some do things they never thought they would do, sometimes things that make no sense. They reach out to all possibilities trying to ease that fear. They obviously believed in something other then the earth bound life. But they also seemed to be very afraid that they wouldnt make it to the after life by performing outrageous acts. There is more to understand here then the fact that we dont like what they did.
Just my thoughts

Peace to all,
Lynette

[billybobbutterball]

onething says:

I wish RA had said more about the negative path, on the different densities, so that I could better try to understand how things work.

Hi, Thing.

Don Elkins made quite a few inquiries concerning negative polarity. David Wilcock has mentioned several times that Don's interest in the mechanics of the negative side may have opened the door to his tragic demise. (via negative attack) With Don's vital participation ended, through physical death, there came the seemingly premature end to the Ra channeling.

The problem with questioning The Ra was that many answers were not forthcoming simply because of possible interference with the Law of Confusion. Don, of course had an inquiring mind and was quite interested in subjects that The Ra considered trivial, simply because they were judged to be transient (if the question/answer would be unimportant in ten or twenty thousand years, then the inquiry was obviously transient. :rolleyes: )

An interesting aside is that a suggestion was given that transitory information is better inquired of from those parties located in the inner, so-called astral planes. (which I gather -- besides having zillions of levels -- have many of the characteristics of 3-D) The problem is, of course, being sure one is tapping into and then maintaining the fragile connection to reliable and trustworthy sources.:confused:

Considering all the weird psychic material coming though from various sources suggests that the path to the astral is not that easy, and admittedly more than a bit chancy.

billybob

[onething]

The lady said,

I think the Mayans history shows for whatever reasons that they had great fear.

Yes, that is pretty much what I said in my lost post. The Mayans were obsessed with the need to assure that the sun continue to rise. To me, this indicates trauma that may have been from the worldwide catastrophe known as the flood which also caused a period of darkness, at least in some parts of the world. There are many myths about this, and also from the middle east, in both the Bible and I think Greek mythology about a day when the sun didn't set. Well, that's the opposite side of the world from South America. That means, for them, the sun didn't rise. Considering that it also came with many disturbances and annihilations, the lack of the sun for a couple of days or more would be extremely frightening.

Fear always decreases consciousness and leaves the mind vulnerable to negative suggestions.

There are many hints that sacrifice was practiced in the near east and by the Hebrews themselves. for one thing, they were accused of sacrificing their children to Moloch by one of the prophets, and there is a very strange passage in regard to Moses in which it seems he may have decided to sacrifice one or both of his sons, but his wife prevented it by hurriedly circumcising them. She was very angry and called him a bloody spouse.

Apparently the practice was for a king to sacrifice a child if a battle of extreme importance was looming - and Moses was about to face pharaoh.

From what I have read, Quetzylcoatl tried to get the people to stop it.

Someone here wrote that the Atlanteans were the source of this practice. That is interesting, in light of some stuff I read about how, linguistically, the letters atl are found throughout much of the "Indian" peoples of south america, and other islands where Atlanteans would have made landfall. See, both the Atl-antic ocean and Quetzylco-atl contain it!

[onething]

Well, Billybob,

I guess I haven't read all the LoO stuff yet, since I read some, but not extensive info about how negative density works. Do you know if it is in the study guide?

David Wilcock has mentioned several times that Don's interest in the mechanics of the negative side may have opened the door to his tragic demise.

I tend to feel pretty invulnerable to that sort of thing, but perhaps I'm a fool. I have actually begun to suspect that I am subject to negative attacks myself, when I get out of line. It's a very recent thing. Perhaps it's a sign of progress, as I wasn't worth their attention before.

(if the question/answer would be unimportant in ten or twenty thousand years, then the inquiry was obviously transient.

I completely agree with this. But I think questions about how negative density works are relevant at any time.

An interesting aside is that a suggestion was given that transitory information is better inquired of from those parties located in the inner, so-called astral planes. (which I gather -- besides having zillions of levels -- have many of the characteristics of 3-D) The problem is, of course, being sure one is tapping into and then maintaining the fragile connection to reliable and trustworthy sources.

Yes, well, I tend to dislike the astral realm and want to steer clear of it, although I was assured by one Shankara that there is a whole positive side to it, and perhaps that is why you say its similar to 3D. But anyway, I think it is a 4D realm, and therefore the positives and negatives are not interacting directly with each other - that is what 3D is about.

In fact, I have never paid the slightest attention to ANY channeled material, but being gently lead by this website, I have read a fair amount of the LoO stuff.

[Nina]

Reread part of Steiner's Mexican Mysteries and found reference to Genghis Khan who was mentioned as an example of negative polarity. Will copy part here in case anyone is interested. NINA

You will remember that in Atlantean times the impulses within the souls of men were turned to the Great Spirit who was designated by a word or sound of which an echo still exists in the Chinese Tao. Such was the designation of the Great Spirit in the time of Atlantis. The luciferic and ahrimanic striving consists essentially in bringing what had come later and what was still to come, into the service of the Tao, into the service of the Great Spirit. This was not, of course, the Great Spirit as he had reigned in Atlantis, but a being who had come after him, a kind of little son. Lucifer and Ahriman strove to resuscitate Atlantean impulses by reckoning, not with the normal powers of the fifth post-Atlantean epoch, but with the impulses that had remained behind in the service of the Great Spirit Tao. The only possibility of achieving this end was to transfer the impulses that had worked in the culture of the now submerged Atlantis to the regions that had emerged after the Atlantean flood. Thus a part of what had succeeded the Great Spirit passed over to the East, to Asia, as it were, where certain mystery cults were gradually established during the tenth, eleventh and twelfth centuries A.D.

These mystery cults assumed a certain character inasmuch as they were a renewal, a revival, of the ancient cult of Tao in its original form, not in the form in which it still exists among the degenerate Chinese who have intellectualized it. These mystery cults in Asia were a revival of that kind of initiation that led to actual perception of the elemental spiritual, living and weaving beneath the material world of the senses, and to actual perception of the One Great Spirit. Certain priests of these Asian mysteries were initiated into the ancient Atlantean cult, which naturally led to delusions because it was unsuited to this later epoch. One of these priests had attained such an advanced stage in his initiation in Asia that he possessed full knowledge of the nature of the Atlantean impulses and was able to hold actual converse with the successor, the unlawful successor, of the Great Spirit Tao. It was he, who, in Asia, transmitted the inspiration he had received through the Great Spirit, to an external, worldly power, to a pupil who then became known in history as Genghis Khan.

[AmelieJolie]

What I would really like to know is whether there is any such thing as the Reptilians or not........

Apparently there are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75IbtxLTpHo&feature=related

Perhaps the Mayans were influenced by such beings.

A lot of the time, its so hard to decide who's telling the truth in this world, or who's sane.

[Gort]

We are attempting to understand a culture that existed 3500 years ago.

My thoughts on this are simple. I am having a hard time trying to understand how we can judge what they did from what information we have. I have no idea what was in the codices or material that was destroyed. I want everyone to take a deep breath and just hear me out on this.

I spent 10 years in law enforcement and when you have to examine something that took place when you were not there, you have to rely on the evidence that you have. I have examined crime scenes and been completely wrong about piecing together what I thought happened. Why? Because the number 1 reason was, that my brain operates different than the person committing the crime. It is extremely difficult to connect the dots if the dots were left by someone who is on a different wavelength. I don't think like a criminal and it is hard for me to understand the reasoning behind doing certain things. Perhaps this might not be the best analogy but, the point I am trying to make here is that:

We only have a limited amount of resources to go on and that is only if we believe that what we have interpreted is real or correct.

I have had to start at point A and hear a story, then go and verify it as true so that I can move on to the next step. I have been lied to and that sometimes does not come out until the very end.

Here is an example of what I am talking about: Mrs. Smith lives in an apartment by herself and one day she notices a man going into an apartment across the hall. She calls the police and reports a burglary in progress because she never has seen anyone go in there except the old man who lives there. When the police get there they find out that it's the maintenance man and he is repairing the burnt out light. All the police had to go on is what they were told. Now this is a simple example and I could make it more complicated but I think you understand what I am saying. Wouldn't it be funny to find out that the people who interpret the glyphs are wrong about what was depicted and that what was being depicted as a sacrifice was really an attempt to depict an operation or some thing else?

I can not think like a Mayan because I was not there and have no idea what were factors that were at work in their civilization. We are relying on interpretations of what someone reading and deciphering glyphs are telling us happened? What if they were wrong because these were works of fiction?

I am really going out on a limb and should not do that. Just think about this: We are about to shift into a whole new level of consciousness. Although we have texts and written documents that explain things they are subject to interpretation and look at how many different versions there are of this event. Just food for thought.

[billybobbutterball]

Well, Billybob,

I guess I haven't read all the LoO stuff yet, since I read some, but not extensive info about how negative density works. Do you know if it is in the study guide?

### Just an outline, but enough to get a sense of what is going on concerning the tension between the two polarities. You could go to LLResearch.org and do a search on the subject, but don't get wrapped up in it to the degree you unwittingly send out an "invitation". Negativity isn't always dramatic. The hallmark is the attempt to control the actions of others -- even when meant for their own good.

David Wilcock has mentioned several times that Don's interest in the mechanics of the negative side may have opened the door to his tragic demise.

I tend to feel pretty invulnerable to that sort of thing, but perhaps I'm a fool. I have actually begun to suspect that I am subject to negative attacks myself, when I get out of line. It's a very recent thing. Perhaps it's a sign of progress, as I wasn't worth their attention before.

### Much depends on how much positive "light" one's lifestyle is producing. Disincarnate entities increase their negative polarity by squelching such. Most people operate in the lukewarm range so are not of that much an attractive target.

(if the question/answer would be unimportant in ten or twenty thousand years, then the inquiry was obviously transient.

I completely agree with this. But I think questions about how negative density works are relevant at any time.

### ...know thy enemy? Sometimes our enemy turns out to be simply ourself.
After all we do come into this life sequence with a great deal of baggage.

An interesting aside is that a suggestion was given that transitory information is better inquired of from those parties located in the inner, so-called astral planes. (which I gather -- besides having zillions of levels -- have many of the characteristics of 3-D) The problem is, of course, being sure one is tapping into and then maintaining the fragile connection to reliable and trustworthy sources.

Yes, well, I tend to dislike the astral realm and want to steer clear of it, although I was assured by one Shankara that there is a whole positive side to it, and perhaps that is why you say its similar to 3D. But anyway, I think it is a 4D realm, and therefore the positives and negatives are not interacting directly with each other - that is what 3D is about.

### There are many diverse opinions about what constitutes the astral, but I don't think that the fourth density is properly thought of as being a part of it. Think about it. Where do departed souls camp out when they have not yet qualified for the fourth? The Astral? There is a near infinity of divisions in all densities, for the Astral it might range from the so-called "elementals" through animal group soul complexes up to those of the so-called White Brotherhood (those advanced earth-processed souls who have voluntered to postpone their harvesting to the fourth in order to be of more immediate help to their struggling brothers and sisters still cycling in 3-D. -- and they do pay a price for hanging around...there are aspects of soul-growth that are perforce postponed since they can ony be learned in the higher densities..


In fact, I have never paid the slightest attention to ANY channeled material, but being gently lead by this website, I have read a fair amount of the LoO stuff.

### Please keep reading, since the basic requirment of belonging to this discussion group revolves around an agreement concerning the basic validity of CERTAIN channeled material -- and of course it assumes a member's maintaining a positive interest in the person and work of David Wilcock. :) (that summation is just off the top of my head and not in the lanquage of the offical dogma...but occasionally everyone, including moi, should re-read the required agreement for participation in this forum -- located at the bottom of the entrance page)

I hope this is of some help. The subject is so vast that it defies comprehension. The Ra states that the requirement for induction into the 4th is to understand that one doesn't understand anything at all (or words to that general paradoxical effect)

sharing in the confusion concerning the any and all...billybob

[AmelieJolie]

Quote from bbb:
I hope this is of some help. The subject is so vast that it defies comprehension. The Ra states that the requirement for induction into the 4th is to understand that one doesn't understand anything at all (or words to that general paradoxical effect)
Because we all have our own unique way of looking at things, our own "doors of perception". Its a bit like the story of the "Six Blind Men And The Elephant".

By the way, I posted my thoughts on this earlier, but the post didn't go through-
The interview on the thread I posted here....I watched the whole thing today and it was amazing.

And now I feel I DO KNOW THE ORIGINS OF MAYAN HUMAN SACRIFICE- and all sacrifice for that matter. I have put a thread in to go through in the general discussion section about this, but whether or not they'll put it through waits to be revealed.

If you want to see the interview, it's the latest in my blog on my Myspace profile- see my signature below for the link.

[DJDeeZe]

I am currently over half way through reading the book "Serpent of Light Beyond 2012" by Drunvalo Melchizeek.

It goes into Mayan history quite a bit. If it is true, it answers some of the questions/concerns raised in this thread.

Anyone else read this? Thoughts?

Peas,
(:-DeeZe

[Nina]

Hello Everyone,
This also seems relevant to me, about this time period, more about specific activity. It is all very complex. Reflecting on what you wrote Bill, about being able to accept certain givens of RA Material. Find myself drawn to Steiner foundational material and find it is creating dissonance for me with specifics given by RA Material, and perhaps best if I continue my studies independently. This is not a Steiner group and for me, certain specifics Steiner gave, are crucial, like the two Jesus children, different info re- Yahweh,the role of the Christ Being,etc...material I can't discount. Maybe I will return when better skilled in understanding. Meanwhile, Peace to all of you - NINA

From Mexican Mysteries:

A third movement also developed in those regions. Counter-movements were necessary, and had there been none, the influences of these forces upon the culture of Greece and Rome, and later upon the culture of the fifth post-Atlantean epoch, would gradually have become so strong that they would have proved invincible to the progressive powers. Thus, a further counter-movement developed as a result of the birth of a being who lived in a physical body in contrast to those beings who only manifested in etheric bodies. The name given to this Being may be expressed by a combination of syllables that approximate Vitzliputzli. Vitzliputzli was a human being, a being who appeared in a physical body. In Vitzliputzli the spiritual individuality lived who, within a human body, took up the fight against the mysteries I have been describing. Among the Mexicans it was said of Vitzliputzli that he was born of a virgin who had conceived by the heavenly influence of a bird having drawn near to her. If by occult means, so far as it is possible, we investigate the life of Vitzliputzli in the Western Hemisphere we find this remarkable fact. He lived at the time when, in the Eastern Hemisphere, the Mystery of Golgotha was taking place, namely, between the years 1 and 33 A.D. That is the remarkable fact. Vitzliputzli was able to make short shrift of the most important initiates of the Mexican mysteries against whom he waged violent war.

It was human being, an initiate, not one of the three spirits, but an initiate, against whom Vitzliputzli fought. Vitzliputzli, a supersensible being but in human form, battled with every means at his disposal against the initiate who had been responsible for the greatest number of murders, who had attained the greatest power, and of whom it can be said that if his aim had been realized, it would have betokened the victory of this ahrimanic post-Atlantean culture. Vitzliputzli fought against him and — as already said, this can only be discovered by occult means — in the year 33 A.D. succeeded in causing this mightiest black magician to be crucified. Thus, in the other hemisphere of the earth, an event parallel to the Mystery of Golgotha took place, inasmuch as the greatest black magician of all was crucified by the action of Vitzliputzli who had appeared on the earth for this purpose. As a result, the power of these mysteries was thereby broken so far as the fourth post-Atlantean epoch was concerned. It was subsequently revived, however, and history tells of the fate suffered by numerous Europeans who went to America after the discovery of that continent. Many Europeans met their death at the hands of Mexican priest-initiates who bound them to scaffold-like structures and cut out their stomachs with expert skill. This is a matter of historical knowledge, and it was an aftermath of what I have been describing to you.

By these means the ahrimanic impulse was inculcated into the etheric nature of the Western world. As I have said, this impulse in the fourth epoch was broken as a result of the crucifixion of the great initiated black magician by the deed of Vitzliputzli.

[Gort]

I had to go back and lok to see what the first question was in this thread.

The Mayans supposedly got the Calendar from the Olmec's and enhanced it.

I think that is what I have read.

[AmelieJolie]

"Wisdom i knowing how little we know".

This is what they say.

I was inspired yesterday by material I got into, but I have to be humble and admit that a mere human can never be certain without first-hand experience, that what another human being is saying is in fact correct (unless you know them really well or have very sharp intuition to judge them).

But what I'm wondering is whether the Mayans were involved in so much bloodshed and bloodthirsty sacrificial rituals (and other rituals involving blood).......is because they were influenced by these "Reptilian" species of beings (the majority of which are extremely negative!). Some of you may have heard about them.

I was skeptical about their existence at first, but now I have become more open-minded.

But perhaps I shouldn't worry about the evil in the world.

Perhaps I should instead be looking for the good?

By the way, I deleted the interview from my blog but it can be found on Youtube under the title of "Credo Mutwa reveals the Reptilian agenda".

[onething]

Billybob,

Well, things are bit disturbing. You said,
### Please keep reading, since the basic requirment of belonging to this discussion group revolves around an agreement concerning the basic validity of CERTAIN channeled material -- and of course it assumes a member's maintaining a positive interest in the person and work of David Wilcock.

So I went and reread the entrance rules, and while I found it to be mostly reasonable, I really had not quite seen it that way. It bothers me because while the general info I have come across on this site (mostly Wilcock's writings) are so in line with what I already believe and have come to understand that I was just dancing jigs - I have not really made up my mind about Ra, and I didn't find it near the beginning of my readings on this site but rather much later.

This situation is a lot like what I don't like in religion, where you have to believe things that you really cannot know the truth of, or are not permitted to do other than accept the entirety of its teachings. The Ra material seems for the most part to be hard to find fault with, i.e., very minimally distorted by negativity of the sort one so often finds in religions. But it also says certain things, some of it about history, that I have my doubts. But I personally have no way of knowing whether channeled material is valid or not, or whether channeling is even occurring or not. Although I strongly suspect it is.
**************************
On the other hand, I wrote the above well over an hour ago, and then I thought, but is there a concise definition of the Law of One or is that just the name of the Ra material. Because the idea behind law of one is something I am very sure is true.

So I went a-googling and I found a lawofone info site that had a category about how 4th and 5th density operate and I am just amazed at the things Ra says about how it works for two reasons:

One, it is so shockingly similar to what is/has been going on, rather openly on our planet, i.e., slavery and its justification, unquestioning obedience based upon relative personal power as in totalitarianism and at times religious bodies, and

Two, over the past year or so nearly everything I have just read has simply been pouring into my mind and I have been seeing and seeing through the lies and distortions and have come to an understanding of the workings of these negative entities in our political and religious life. Everything Ra just said about how they operate had already become known to me. And yet, for years before this my spiritual life was one of great personal connection to Got but I had little or no interest in things like demons.

It is odd because for some years now I have been increasingly aware of the goodness of God and living a more and more wonderful spiritual life of gratitude - and yet this other, rather jarring reality, rather than receding, has instead become so visible to me. Like a veil just lifted one day. It may very well be true that God is love and the universe is a wonderful place, but that does not alter the fact that we are in a kind of hell here. Stuff is goin' down, and it's no use pretending it isn't!

I have developed an entire philosophy of how and why the Christian religion has been distorted and made negative by these entities, and have been certain that they have done so through the temptation of thoughts - and that is exactly what Ra has said is the way they operate.

But meanwhile- note that Nina felt excluded by the idea she cannot participate unless she accepts the Ra material:

Hello Everyone,
This also seems relevant to me, about this time period, more about specific activity. It is all very complex. Reflecting on what you wrote Bill, about being able to accept certain givens of RA Material. Find myself drawn to Steiner foundational material and find it is creating dissonance for me with specifics given by RA Material, and perhaps best if I continue my studies independently. This is not a Steiner group and for me, certain specifics Steiner gave, are crucial, like the two Jesus children, different info re- Yahweh,the role of the Christ Being,etc...material I can't discount. Maybe I will return when better skilled in understanding. Meanwhile, Peace to all of you - NINA

[AmelieJolie]

Hi. I have just been reading this from the Law of One:
23.17 Questioner: I understand, if I am correct, that a South American contact was also made. Can you tell me of the nature of your contact with respect to the attitude about the contact, its ramifications, the plan for the contact, and why the people were contacted in South America?

Ra: I am Ra. This will be the final full question of this session. The entities who walked among those in your South American continent were called by a similar desire upon the part of the entities therein to learn of the manifestations of the sun. They worshipped this source of light and life.

Thus, these entities were visited by light beings not unlike ourselves. Instructions were given and they were more accepted and less distorted than ours. The entities themselves began to construct a series of underground and hidden cities including pyramid structures.

These pyramids were somewhat at variance from the design that we had promulgated. However, the original ideas were the same with the addition of a desire or intention of creating places of meditation and rest, a feeling of the presence of the One Creator; these pyramids then being for all people, not only initiates and those to be healed.

They left this density when it was discovered that their plans were solidly in motion and, in fact, had been recorded. During the next approximately 3,500 years these plans became, though somewhat distorted, in a state of near-completion in many aspects.

Therefore, as is the case of the breakings of the quarantine, the entity who was helping the South American entities along the South American ways you call in part the Amazon River went before the Council of Saturn to request a second attempt to correct in person the distortions which had occurred in their plans. This having been granted, this entity or social memory complex returned and the entity chosen as messenger came among the peoples once more to correct the errors.

Again, all was recorded and the entity rejoined its social memory complex and left your skies.

As in our experience the teachings were, for the most part, greatly and grossly perverted to the extent in later times of actual human sacrifice rather than healing of humans. Thus, this social memory complex is also given the honor/duty of remaining until those distortions are worked out of the distortion complexes of your peoples.

http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?search_string=sacrifice&search_type=all&ss=0&sc=1

It makes some sense to me that these people who worshiped the Sun could have been contacted by positive beings........

Anyway.

Onething
Two, over the past year or so nearly everything I have just read has simply been pouring into my mind and I have been seeing and seeing through the lies and distortions and have come to an understanding of the workings of these negative entities in our political and religious life. Everything Ra just said about how they operate had already become known to me. And yet, for years before this my spiritual life was one of great personal connection to Got but I had little or no interest in things like demons.

Same here!!

[MarkM]

Hi Nina

I spent years studying many varied spiritually oriented materials, including much channeled material, and would concentrate upon highlighting in my mind items which seemed to contradict other items, from other sources, in order to reconcile them.

There would be bodies of information that resonated, followed by other things equally as resonating and fascinating, but with mention of something such as some historical account that didn't mesh with what I studied previously. When you start getting into such things as Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Edgar Cayce, Seth, Christian Science or what have you, this is a potential minefield for those seeking a unified view of the human spiritual heritage as although one may hold many of these things in high esteem, there is always the matter of contradiction of concepts.

IMO that there is something I have noticed with all 'inspired', or channeled information; the sources of information are wide and varied, with the vast majority of sources being the astral planes of Earth, and also evolutionary levels above but close to our own. We may intuitively understand that a source communicates from a differing or higher vantage than the human, and know that much high wisdom is being offered, although these sources are certainly not near infallibility or omnipotence.

Although I believe that the Ra contact was virtually unique in the undistorted fidelity of communication and the high level of spiritual evolution of the source, Ra was dependant upon the questioner, Don Elkins, for subject material. Ra would not suggest areas for query, although I suspect some answers were multi-layered and cryptic enough to allow further questions along certain lines to formulate in Don and the rest of the group's minds. Thus Ra was bound to expound upon many issues of natural human curiosity, although interspersed with incredibly detailed issues of a more purely spiritual nature.

But Ra was not omniscient, nor immune from errors. Edgar Cayce was open to contact from trickster entities, Blavatsky and Steiner had otherworldly contacts which were distorted towards pre-conceived biases and belief systems, undoubtably. Distortion also comes from the beliefs and biases of the receiver of channeled information.

I eventually learned that focusing upon these details was missing the point. Much inspirational material comes through in all this material, kind of like a buffet table in a restaurant. You take what suits you, and leave the rest. The next person in line makes an entirely different selection.

I can't prove to my conscious mind any historical details provided by any of these sources, much less be able to identify exactly when a misleading influence is present or a channeled entity is merely parroting from it's own dogma.

But, my ability to discern intuitively has grown greatly in recent years. What I intuit is not to do with temporal issues such as historical events or personages. That which I find intuitively discernable invariably pertains to timeless, ageless spiritual truths that speak directly to me in a way that largely bypasses my ego mind and settles right down into my being, radiating a comfortable warmth that I can bask in with no doubt of it's goodness or relevence to my current presence in the world.

Now, I am not discounting the value of contemplating the great riches presented in 'inspired' material and teachings that offer us glimpses into remote antiquity or other planes of existance. I spent many years doing so, and have no regret, although I have kind of come full circle in this regard, in that I am now more focused on what bubbles up from within myself.

What I 'channel' from my own higher self has an advantage over that channeled through anyone else; it's tailor-made just for me, at this stage of my life and my dealings with others. What I love about this website is that the over-riding message, woven throughout it's entirety, is that we are admonished and taught how to connect with our own higher selves, and to not rely on any exterior source to do anything but point the way in this regard.

This is the only true motivation of any source which genuinely seeks to aid those on Earth, as the greatest actualized benefit to humanity comes from those here who do achieve connection to their higher selves; they increase the light available to all.

Having learned to go inward and having learned personal discernment spiritually, one finds it really doesn't matter too much who built the pyramids.;)

-Mark

[billybobbutterball]

Billybob,

Well, things are bit disturbing. You said,
Quote:
###BBB says: Please keep reading, since the basic requirement of belonging to this discussion group revolves around an agreement concerning the basic validity of CERTAIN channeled material -- and of course it assumes a member's maintaining a positive interest in the person and work of David Wilcock.

OneT: says:So I went and reread the entrance rules, and while I found it to be mostly reasonable, I really had not quite seen it that way. It bothers me because while the general info I have come across on this site (mostly Wilcock's writings) are so in line with what I already believe and have come to understand that I was just dancing jigs - I have not really made up my mind about Ra, and I didn't find it near the beginning of my readings on this site but rather much later.

This situation is a lot like what I don't like in religion, where you have to believe things that you really cannot know the truth of, or are not permitted to do other than accept the entirety of its teachings. The Ra material seems for the most part to be hard to find fault with, i.e., very minimally distorted by negativity of the sort one so often finds in religions. But it also says certain things, some of it about history, that I have my doubts. But I personally have no way of knowing whether channeled material is valid or not, or whether channeling is even occurring or not. Although I strongly suspect it is.


##BBB: Dear 'Onething' I didn't intend to be a wet blanket by calling attention to the cast-in-concrete 10 commandments governing our divinecosmos discussion group. ( I exaggerate the number, and anyway they were smeared by a lipstick across a wrinkly sticky note) I can see why you draw a parallel between the DC guidelines and the requirement of dying on a hillside in upholding rigid religious articles of faith.

But a major difference is that the Bible is infallible and unchallengable, while the Ra Material is not. The Ra states that the information given is their best-informed opinion, not scripture. And that if something in what they give does not resonate with one, then don't flip out, just let it slide by. (Seems that the desirable simple situation of one size-fits-all has no existence in 3D metaphysics.) The Ra philosophy is a philosophy of religion, not a religion. It gives us just enough to whet our appetite concerning spiritual matters and leaves us hanging, wanting more.

One needs to keep in mind that the Ra was self-constrained not to interfere with the Law of Confusion,( AKA freedom of will.) The Ra largely depended on questions from Don Elkins to prime the pump. If a question was not posed then a whole range of possible inquiry was lost. Oft times an answer was not allowed to be given. Many questions concerning higher matters could not be expressed or explained in 3D terms.

About the validity of channeling phenomenon I have no doubt about it; there is just too much evidence to wave it away. However, just how valid a particular example might be is hard to ascertain. There is at least one clear example in the Ra channeling experience where the connection went bad. The glitch was not disclosed until discovered in the transcriptions of the tape. The red flag of warning had been waved during the session but overlooked.


Onething says: It is odd because for some years now I have been increasingly aware of the goodness of God and living a more and more wonderful spiritual life of gratitude - and yet this other, rather jarring reality, rather than receding, has instead become so visible to me. Like a veil just lifted one day. It may very well be true that God is love and the universe is a wonderful place, but that does not alter the fact that we are in a kind of hell here. Stuff is goin' down, and it's no use pretending it isn't!

I have developed an entire philosophy of how and why the Christian religion has been distorted and made negative by these entities, and have been certain that they have done so through the temptation of thoughts - and that is exactly what Ra has said is the way they operate.

But meanwhile- note that Nina felt excluded by the idea she cannot participate unless she accepts the Ra material:

Nina: Hello Everyone,
This also seems relevant to me, about this time period, more about specific activity. It is all very complex. Reflecting on what you wrote Bill, about being able to accept certain givens of RA Material. Find myself drawn to Steiner foundational material and find it is creating dissonance for me with specifics given by RA Material, and perhaps best if I continue my studies independently. This is not a Steiner group and for me, certain specifics Steiner gave, are crucial, like the two Jesus children, different info re- Yahweh,the role of the Christ Being,etc...material I can't discount. Maybe I will return when better skilled in understanding. Meanwhile, Peace to all of you - NINA


## BBB: Working backwards...I have great admiration for Nina's spiritual qualities and intellect. I've been instructed by her postings, and indeed, Steiner is a major figure of importance in "New Thought". But again, the Divine Cosmos is not an open-ended New Age swap meet. Its existence is predicated on those hungry spirits circling around looking for tasty Ra tidbits (sorry, couldn't resist) And, yeah, about David...he's tasty to. There are historical anomalies concerning the life of Jesus...Ra and associates (Latwii, Quo, Hatton, etc) don't dig very deep. I think this is perhaps largely out of respect for Carla's beliefs...(at least this reserve was the stated case early on when dealing with Edgar Cayce and the philosophy of reincarnation ...too much too soon and Edgar would have closed up shop.)

Regarding questions of the origin of the Torah, who was Yahweh? et al... Please check out the east/west study section at

ScottMandelker.com.

Scott uses much of the Ra material and ties it together with main elements of Gnosticism.

(I should clarify that, as I understand her, Carla is not concerned with religious trivia and historistic details of Jesus but instead concentrates on his spiritual being and the basic message of love. According to Ra the figure of Jesus was a wanderer from a high level of 4D. This same vibration/figure/group had been to earth before --supposedly as the Buddha. Krishna, etc. When asked where Jesus was at this present time, the answer was that of 5D.

Here is a psycholgical problem that trips up many. Christians believe that Jesus/Christ is an absolutely neccesary "savior". Humanity needs to be saved because we are mere dust CREATURES lacking any divinity. However, from the RA perspective, we are not that kind of separated thing but rather a differentiated aspect of the One Creator, and as such we CONTAIN within us all that is needed to eventually realize who we actually are and what to do about it.

In the study of the Law of One Christians really have a hard time in doing the needed mental flip flop to get free from subconscious mental sets. (Render unto the Prime Creator what is the Creator's, and unto the religion of Christianity what is 3D religion)

GOD IS LOVE! ... But WHAT IS LOVE? Is tough love really love? The term "love" really doesn't say it all…love is more like the glue that holds cosmos together. The Negative does love the god within him, but often does very unloving things. But his act is still distorted love...go figure that one. I've been trying for years!

Again, my apologies for writing too much. Wisdom tip #46: It does help to become a speed-reader.

billybobbutterperson

[onething]

Billy and all,

Yeah, OK I'm over it now. I'll check out the stuff about Yahweh. Meanwhile, if anyone knows his whereabouts, please let me know, 'cause I'd like to get my hands on that scoundrel...

Been reading the Ra today and yesterday and I find some items of interest.

One, the hierarchical nature of the negative polarities, based upon personal power is much like the hierarchical pecking order among animals, which is largely based upon the ability to intimidate, sometimes but not always backed up by actual physical superiority. It may be some people don't know this, but whether its chickens, horses or dogs, each animal knows exactly where it stands in the hierarchy, and when one animal gets a new advantage or disadvantage, there are skirmishes until order is again achieved.

Another is the idea that so far Ra hasn't said directly, but that several new age writers have touched upon, which is that the negative entities, the nearby astral 4th density legions and 5th density no doubt as well, feed off of our negative emotions, and thus they are motivated to manipulate events so as to provoke them.

In one of the questions I read yesterday, the questioner asks Ra about why the 4th density negatives are motivated to swell their ranks with new recruits. I don't remember the precise answer, but it seems that they are also motivated to create oppression and fear that is not always connected with persuading entities to become negative. In other places in the Ra material, Ra was asked whether the Ra needed to eat anything. He answered yes, and explained about 4th, 5th, and 6th density positive eating, which was some sort of light ambrosia or something. He said nothing about the negatives (he was not asked!).

Well, what about 4D negative, 5D negative. What do they eat? Surely not light and love? Or perhaps light and love in their most condensed form - fear, hatred, anger, despair?

So today, the questioner asks Ra why do some people get into a negative momentum? And Ra answers:

I am Ra. We can speak only in metaphor. Some love the light. Some love the darkness. It is a matter of the unique and infinitely various Creator choosing and playing among its experiences as a child upon a picnic. Some enjoy the picnic and find the sun beautiful, the food delicious, the games refreshing, and glow with the joy of creation. Some find the night delicious, their picnic being pain, difficulty, sufferings of others, and the examination of the perversities of nature. These enjoy a different picnic.

Note that he equates their enjoyment of the pain and suffering of others to a picnic.

Just a thought. Here's another:

19.18 Questioner: I believe we have a very important point here. It then seems that there is an extreme potential in this polarization the same as there is in electricity. We have a positive and negative pole. The more you build the charge on either of these, the more the potential difference and the greater the ability to do work, as we call it in the physical.

This would seem to me to be the same analogy that we have in consciousness. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is precisely correct.

So this polarity or ability to do work catapults the entity - eventually - into harvest, into a new level of existence. This seems entirely in line with what I already know about biology, and I think that we find patterns repeat themselves throughout the layers of reality. For example, I had read many years ago the work of Masters and Johnson, the famous sexual researchers who studied the physiology of the orgasm (women's 'frigidity' being deemed a big problem in those days), and they used certain terms to describe the buildup, orgasm, and post-orgasm, to my surprise, turned out to be exactly the same as used to describe the heartbeat in my nursing school classes. And the teacher, who had doted on me, never forgave me for pointing that out. It turns out, a lot of things work that way. Including the harvest?

[AmelieJolie]

19.18 Questioner:I believe we have a very important point here. It then seems that there is an extreme potential in this polarization the same as there is in electricity. We have a positive and negative pole. The more you build the charge on either of these, the more the potential difference and the greater the ability to do work, as we call it in the physical.

This would seem to me to be the same analogy that we have in consciousness. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is precisely correct.

So "evil" can never be overcome no matter how hard we try?

By trying to overcome evil do we only create a friction which stimulates the "other side" to act accordingly.........an equal and opposite reaction?

I know what I'm going to do.
I'm going to be a rebel and embrace peace instead!

As for the big "O", you brought up.....dare I mention......
This is only my opinion, but I feel that orgasm is created by combining opposite energies within ourselves and fusing them into one, thus creating ecstasy, oneness and perfect balance?

[AmelieJolie]

BBB
But a major difference is that the Bible is infallible and unchallengable

I wish it were.

[billybobbutterball]

BBB

Quote:
But a major difference is that the Bible is infallible and unchallengable

I wish it were.

Amelie, good grief! I was being tongue-in-cheek, sarcastic! :rolleyes:
My fault... I should have written, ... the difference between the two is that according to its fundamentalist believers the Bible is infallible and unchallengable. Is that better?

Mormonism? Still mixed feelings about your leaving?:confused:

google, DNA Vs Book of Mormon That should pretty much put a fork in it

BBB

[onething]

As for the big "O", you brought up.....dare I mention......
This is only my opinion, but I feel that orgasm is created by combining opposite energies within ourselves and fusing them into one, thus creating ecstasy, oneness and perfect balance?

Eh? Perhaps it is so...but I don't know that it conflicts with things like action potentials across cell membranes, nor the excitement, plateau, orgasmic and resolution phases, which are the same for the heartbeat, as I said.

[Nina]

Hello Everyone,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts re-my position. (Onething, Billybob, MarkM)Found what stated earlier in ARCHIVES about my decision to leave a Steiner list and why.
Re: Tomb of Jesus , 3/06/07

--- In asc2k@yahoogroups.com, "James Stephens" <jpstephenslives@...>
wrote:
> In the Light,
> James Stephens
Dear James,Jamie,Sally,Petrus and everyone,
LIGHT...can echo what you all wrote.Tried to share about Svali on
Steiner list/hoped for discussion re-Luciferian influences,etc. Tried
to post this Steiner quote:
"Wherever the influence of Lucifer is not, and wherever the influence
of Ahriman is not, that is where there exists what comes from the
progressive divine spirituality which is linked to the evolution of
humanity. If, in the realms into which the luciferic constantly streams
and into which the ahrimanic constantly streams, we look towards the
divine that holds the balance, we find there PURE LOVE as the
fundamental force of everything that streams continuously, forming the
human being outwardly and giving him soul and spirit inwardly. This
fundamental force is pure love...This love is something inward; souls
can experience it inwardly,It would never achieve an outward position
if it did not first build itself a body out of the etheric element of
light. When we observe the world in a genuinely occult manner we cannot
help but say to ourselves:The ground of the world is the being of
inward love appearing outwardly as light."
He continues:
"The universe,in so far as the human being is rooted in it, is the
being of inward love appearing outwardly through light. It is being
because it has to do with all the beings of the HIGHER HIERARCHIES WHO
ARE CARRIED BY THIS LOVE and who inwardly experience this love which,
however, if we want to employ an abstract idea, appears as light. The
outer appearance of beings is love, and the outer appearance of love is
light."
Post was NOT approved. (withdrew membership there).
Mentioned Gina Cerminara's "Insights for the Age of Aquarius: A
Handbook for Religious Sanity" (uses general semantics as
tool /chapters on "The True Meaning" and that her work saved my sanity!
Can NOT even touch sizzling Christ topic!
(Moderator there not inclined towards NEW AGE channeled material due to
nature of trance,etc. Also others stress importance given to etheric
Christ and feel that NEW AGE thought denies HIS importance as Saviour/
Mediator.)
It is funny because recently there was an anthroposophical joke shared
about "How many anthroposophists does it take to change a light bulb?"
Answer given, "No one knows,Rudolf Steiner did not say!"
Have real problems when what he did say was not allowed to be shared!
(control of light switch!)...
Value freedom here.
Aim for the LIGHT...NINA

Recently, a post was considered "off topic" here. May not be as much freedom of inquiry as I feel this cause demands. Steiner talks so descriptively about dynamics. See his contribution as inseparable from my elementary understanding of Cayce Readings, and that is the platform from which I am most comfortable building.
For instance(Cayce 2533-8) re- about the meaning of J-A-H-H-E-V-A-H-E:
"Java; meaning the ability within itself to know itself to be itself and yet one with ,or one apart from, the infinite;to be a part of that realm of helpers, to know self as a part of that realm of helpers, to know self as a part of and in that realm where the angels are, or in that realm of the individuals who have been, who are, with the Announcer , the Lord of the Way, and who have attained the consciousness of the Christ-within."
Steiner identifies Yahweh as one of the Elohim behind our genetic development but does not report negative elements like Ra Material. Have too much to learn to say more here.
This is a beautiful reading:
"...as each entity under a given name makes its correlating of that it does about the Creative Forces in its experience, it is coming under those influences that are being fed by the manna - which is a representation of the universality as well as the stability of purposes in the Creative forces as manifested to a group or a nation of peoples.
So, it becomes as the Master gave, 'Ye shall not live by bread alone,, but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of the Father.'
That indeed is the holy manna which each entity,each soul in each experience must make a part of its mental and spiritual self."(Cayce 281-31)
Please feel free to write me privately. NINA

[AmelieJolie]

Amelie, good grief! I was being tongue-in-cheek, sarcastic! :rolleyes:
My fault... I should have written, ... the difference between the two is that according to its fundamentalist believers the Bible is infallible and unchallengable. Is that better?

Mormonism? Still mixed feelings about your leaving?:confused:

google, DNA Vs Book of Mormon That should pretty much put a fork in it

BBB

No mixed feelings about leaving- I feel that religion and spirituality are two different things.

Sorry for the misunderstanding- I'm always doing dippy things like that. :o

[onething]

Steiner identifies Yahweh as one of the Elohim behind our genetic development but does not report negative elements like Ra Material.

But one doesn't need Steiner to say whether or not Jehovah has negative elements. Just read the Old Testament for yourself.

[Spiral of Light]

Hi All,

Maybe this is not the place to ask this, but since it came up on this thread, I'll ask it here: Can anyone provide information on the God of the Old Testament who has been called "Jehovah" and "Yahweh"?

I have, from time to time, come across references to Yahweh (Jehovah) as being a principle leader of the original space colonists on Earth. If I remember correctly, this information can be found in one of Sitchin's books and in an article by Hoagland. I don't have the books here with me so I can't check the references.

In Hoagland's article, he makes the distinction between the God of the Old Testament (who seemed curiously cruel at times) and the God of the New Testament (who was mostly loving and forgiving). Hoagland's point is that these were possibly not the same god, but were instead, two different beings -- one an imposter.

I would like to research these concepts further but I have not been able to find other material on the subject. Does anyone here have information to share on this?

With Love and Light,
Nancy

[Spiral of Light]

Oops... I got my authors mixed up! The article I had in mind was written by Scott Mandelker, not Hoagland. Please forgive...most of my reference books are on the other side of the planet because I couldn't bring them with me when I moved to Oz.

Here is some of the information that I found in an archived thread from this forum:

In a message dated 9/14/06 11:30:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
johnnypi@... writes:

> Scott Mandelker gives a clear perspective on references to Yahweh in
> the Ra material here:
> http://www.scottmandelker.com/Articles2/gnostic2.html'
>
> He notes that Yahweh initially is characterized as a benevolent, well-
> meaning interventionist in planetary life 75,000 years ago

Very interesting site. Here is more from the following page:

http://www.scottmandelker.com/Articles2/gnostic3.html

Orion is said to have heavily distorted many aspects of current, normative
Hebrew religion. When asked about the origin of the Ten Commandments, Ra stated:
"The origin of these commandments follows the law of negative entities
impressing information upon positively oriented mind/body/spirit complexes
[here, impressed upon Moses, whom Ra considered an extremely benevolent soul].
....Interestingly, this shows us how a simple message of loving unity,
dignity and respect for others became distorted by that group's insistent need
to do something physical in the human world (ie, in "third-density," the plane of physical humanity). It is not that Ra here recommends killing, stealing, lying, and all other prohibited actions of the Commandments, of course. Their point is simply that when humans demand their leader to tell them what to do and what not to do, then the doors to negative control and deception are opened.
Tyrants, dictators and fascists are always supported atop the voluntary
abnegation of self-responsibility of the peoples they rule. Thus, Ra states that the Orion group came to the early Hebrews in the guise of the original Confederation entity, Yahweh, becoming, in effect, a "false-Yahweh" -- in a manner curiously similar to just what the Gnostics claimed."

This information was mind-boggling to me when I first read it! It still is.
If anyone here has more information to share on this I would love to continue to delve deeper into it.

Thanks... Nancy

[onething]

Hi Nancy,

I'm not sure about hard evidence, but I learned years ago through my own teacher - the Holy Spirit - that Jehovah was an imposter.

I read the same stuff on Mandelkar's site just the other day. It pleased me to read what Ra had to say, and it has boosted Ra in my estimation. What had not occurred to me was the possibility that there was an original Jehovah that was good, and I'm having some trouble with it. The opening of Genesis has a good feel to it, but it goes downhill quickly. I also have a hard time figuring out Moses because the Jehovah he was interacting with was a harsh despot who didn't hesitate to kill those who disobeyed.

But I have noticed that interspersed in the Old Testament are some very good messages, such as :

I will have mercy, and not sacrifice.

It seems a positive influence tried to get through from time to time.

But at any rate, it's time people got over confusing even a very good, very advanced entity with the One Creator. It leads to an anthropomorphising of God, which leads in turn to acceptance of silly beliefs.

The confusion of 'the gods' which seem to have been all over the world in the ancient times, with the True God has wrought incredible mischief because it leads to people being unable to discern the very nature of God.

Some of those gods were pretty nice and left a good legacy, such as in India, but Jehovah was like a drunken and abusive husband and father who left a legacy of trauma that persists down the centuries.

[Spiral of Light]

Hello Onething,

You are so right when you say: "But at any rate, it's time people got over confusing even a very good, very advanced entity with the One Creator. It leads to an anthropomorphising of God, which leads in turn to acceptance of silly beliefs."

Before I finally extricated myself from organized religion, my biggest hang-up was my inability to imagine (even in my wildest dreams) the God who in human likeness sat on a throne of judgement in the heavens. That lack of imagination on my part led to an inability to pray in a meaningful way to the same God. So I spent much of my time feeling guilty because I thought I must have been lacking in faith.

[Nina]

Dear Nancy,
Matherne's review of "Smith's "The Burning Bush"
http://www.doyletics.com/arj/tbbrvw.htm
The first mention of the Christ Being I encountered in my reading of Steiner was when I was reading about the evolution of our solar system, how the Sun sphere split up into the Moon sphere and eventually the Earth separation within these spheres. During the first separation the higher spirits remained behind on the Sun and after the Moon separated out from Earth, one of the Elohim, Jahweh, took up residence in the Moon and became the moon god of Moses. The other Elohim, the Christ, remained in the Sun, living there as we live on the Earth. As a physicist, accustomed to thinking of the thermonuclear furnace of the Sun's interior as inhospitable to life, this was a big stretch for my credulity. Then the thought occurred to me that when one looks at a sundial to tell the time, the line drawn from the face of the sundial across the tip of the gnomon extends directly to the Sun, to the Christ. As our watches are simply a more convenient form of sundial that can be used indoors, etc, whenever we check the time, we are checking the position of Christ at that moment in our world. Thus even the most atheistic clock watchers check the position of Christ in their lives whenever they look at a clock(2).

Can advance to end/go to Burning Bush, read intro. Search for Yahweh.
If you read p.502 of BB, there is excerpt fr Gospel of Sr John commentary: "He alone can understand it who knows that in the ancient Mysteries, Pleroma or Fulness was referred to something very definite."

fr http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19080903p01.html
Man remained behind on the earth-plus-moon, and with him higher beings of the lowest hierarchy, such as angels and archangels, as well as beings who stood lower than man. But a single mighty being, who was already ripe enough to migrate to the sun, sacrificed himself and stayed with earth-plus-moon. This was the being who was later named Yahweh or Jehovah. He left the sun and became the leader of affairs on earth-plus-moon. Thus we have two dwelling-places: the sun and earth-plus-moon. On the sun were the most exalted beings, under the leadership of an especially high and sublime being whom the Gnostics attempted to conceive under the name Pleroma. We must picture this being as the regent of the sun. Yahweh is the leader of earth-plus-moon. We must make it especially clear that the noblest loftiest spirits went out with the sun, leaving the earth behind with the moon. The moon was not yet split off; it was still within the earth.

Also can read fr Steiner's "Reading the Pictures of the Apocalypse":
In the Bible human beings experience the power of God that flows to them as “manna.” Let us now consider the full character of this age. Yahweh reveals himself in the burning bush on Sinai. “Then Yahweh spoke to Moses: ‘I am the I am.’ And he spoke: ‘You should say to the sons of Israel: ‘The I am has sent me to you!’” (Exodus 3:13) With these words the people were told: The I am has sent me to you! Yahweh is the unpronounceable name of God. The name “I” can never be spoken to a human being from outside. It is the intimate name of God that human beings are only permitted to receive, sanctified in their hearts. It was written on the altar of the tabernacle. Therefore, we read: “To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna and I will give him a white stone with a new name written on the white stone ... (Rev. 2:17) Those who received the I learned through an inner power of the spirit to recognize the name with the hidden manna. Through the fact that Christ revealed himself in a physical body on the earth, human beings are to learn not to disdain the earth like the ascetics, but to recognize that this earth has something to give them. And so, the thirst for existence should not be extinguished but we should purify our desires. The westerner should say: “Here work is done; here hands are in motion and what is achieved here is taken through the gate of death.” It is not our intention to tell of miracles but, through legends, to come to realize what humanity has been given as wisdom.
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/ReadApoc/19090513p01.html

Can see related info from my Archives post here, RE-ancient Egyptian Question(2/19/07). Sorry am not advanced enough to make further comments. NINA

[Nina]

Dear Onething,

Expect we all are here due to the comprehensive nature of the "Law of One". True, one does not have to look at Steiner at all. Speaking personally, find author Edward Reaugh Smith's anthroposophical Biblical works MAJOR contributions to spiritual understanding. Like David's, so much of his work is available to read freely. Mr. Smith is a lawyer with a keen mind and exceptional organizational skills! It is your choice if you take the opportunity to read a sample of what he has compiled. I simply cannot praise Smith's talent for showing the Bible in a new way for today, thanks to application of Steiner's insights. Am grateful to him forever. NINA

http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/smith1.html

I'm reading "David's Question" now(there is quite abit about "Yahweh that I'd not even gotten to when wrote Nancy, and shared link re- BURNING BUSH.) See the list on the left for all his titles. The summaries are excellent overviews.

[onething]

Dear Nina,

He does indeed look fascinating.

[Spiral of Light]

Hi Nina,

Thanks for the good Steiner references. These are the kinds of things I am looking for. Jehovah/Yahweh's existence as an Elohim seems to agree with Mandelker's theory that this "God" was not the Creator of all things.

I do have a question about Steiner's source of information. Do you know if it was channeled? Some of his pronouncements seem to be so different from what was commonly accepted in his era, and I don't always find source material in his essays. Can you provide information on this?

Thanks in advance...

Love and Light,
Nancy

[Nina]

Dear Nancy,
Bobby Matherne does a great service by sharing his Steiner reviews and also books may be read there. (www.doyletics.com) You may want to read his review of Steiner's "The Course of My Life":
http://www.doyletics.com/_arj1/courseof.htm
"Imbued with these higher faculties, Steiner experienced spiritual realities directly and had little interest in teachings of past masters on subjects that he could experience in the present. This was his biggest problem with the Theosophical Society and led to the schism that split off his Anthropologiical Section as a separate society. The final break came with the Society announced that a Hindu boy was the reincarnation of Christ on earth and called him the "Star of the East." Too bad. The Society, in it worship of the past, was not able to perceive the "Star of the West" in their very midst, Rudolf Steiner, although many members did recognize his value in Germany and left the Society with Steiner to form the Anthropological Society."

Anything further, Nancy, will post to the "Christ Jesus thread" in General Discussions since aim to keep Steiner located there. NINA
Do know that one account I heard was that at a very young age, Rudolf was at Austrian train station where his father worked, and he saw the spirit of his relative who had passed on - she apparently appeared to walk right out of the wood stove, or so I recollect...